Ep1: Damn the Torpedoes!

[00:00:00] Well, welcome to this is the first episode of Me and Him, a candid conversation between father and son about life, manhood, the universe and everything. Is that a good description for it dad? It's broader than that son but you did well. Bigger than that.

[00:00:26] It takes in the multiverse I think. Bugger the multiverse. So anyways, we are here because we decided to do a podcast on male relationships, particularly our relationships. Our relationships I guess yeah me and you as the people that were generally the heroes of our own

[00:00:48] story and there are and also potentially others around us too right like fathers and uncles and sons. Obviously the women are there too right? I'm not obviously love women, great but we wouldn't be here without women.

[00:01:06] We wouldn't be here without them like so kudos to the women out there you guys are awesome but really I think what we have found and correct me if you think differently dad but what we've found is that conversation and that bond between father and son or even

[00:01:25] son and male role model you know someone who acts like a father father you influence so vital to one's sense of worthiness, sense of self it's so important. And often overlooked. And not just overlooked dad but sometimes even denigrated you know in terms of you know

[00:01:51] I don't want to go too deep too quick here. That's the modern world with all this PC and work works. Yeah well toxic masculinity and you know you've got all this wokeness and what have

[00:02:04] you it's a very confusing world out there and for guys we often don't have as everyone knows real conversations very often it's very much new sport and weather you know like hey see the

[00:02:18] footy and what about this you know might be just a nice day there who's going surfing music you listen to checks you're seeing but son when does it get real? About 20 years ago it dawned upon me because you know my passion for the English language

[00:02:37] that fundamentally men talk in terms of meaningful grunts whereas women have about five conversations going simultaneously and they're part of them I mean we blokes are pretty simple but our strength is required you know to work hard to support the family or to defend them if necessary.

[00:03:07] I know it sounds old and stereotypical but I am old and stereotypical so what's wrong with believing it? You definitely like stereo, stereos. Yes but those are again I can't see that we've got a video

[00:03:33] this virtual studio and Dad's got all his records on the back and I've got how many records you got by the way how many like approximately? LPs probably two and a half thousand yeah that's great

[00:03:44] and about the same for CDs. Yeah well I've got a million because I got Spotify 11.99 a month yeah that's why I don't listen to it. So I guess this is where we're going right with

[00:03:59] the whole idea of just conversations between me and him between me and you on a lot of different topics but really with the central theme being what's going on in our lives and I guess this

[00:04:14] for me has been a journey of opening up of letting go of not caring maybe I'm just getting old you know not caring. Look I'm old you're becoming mature. Oh yeah that sounds better.

[00:04:32] No it's true I'm old and crusty and I'm in the drop-off zone and you've been buffeted by life as we all are buffeted and you know realizations are starting to crystallize in your head

[00:04:53] whereas nothing crystallizes in my head is full of mush because I think there's alcoholic crystals in there somehow. They're the preservative ones they're okay. All right well we're gonna kick things off and I think what we'll do we'll start talking about

[00:05:16] our fathers. Right now obviously I can talk about you but I want to start I want to hear about and I know a little bit about this already your experience growing up with a Croatian

[00:05:31] father you know who an immigrant. I have to interrupt son Dalmatian. The Dalmatian islands are off the coast of Croatia. Dalmatia okay and they'll fight to the death if you call one the other.

[00:05:50] Everyone I've been induced myself as part of Croatian. If I say part Dalmatian they're like okay so why why don't we start with talking about your Dalmatian dad. Oh he was a very handsome intelligent big strong man and he worked hard under very difficult conditions.

[00:06:20] He was one of two brothers and a younger brother was favored. My grandfather his father came out to New Zealand after the he was actually because of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the Austrian Navy when World War One broke out. Right and our lifetime

[00:06:59] apart from Vietnam and Korea we've never been through world wars and world wars tend to devastate economies right around the world. Everyone was poor and everyone had to as eke out of living as best they could. Such desperate times though. Yeah so my grandfather

[00:07:25] came out on a ship to would have been Auckland Harbour and then went into the the gum fields in the north of the North Island. I remember hearing that because gum those days was used

[00:07:43] for a variety of things you know glue and it being the primary one but there were other products that came out of the gum and the carry fields or forests I should say we're pristine and there were large quantities of gum around the roots and these workers

[00:08:17] lived in tents with tin plates to eat off or an amylized tin and my granddad worked very hard to get the money to bring his eldest son out. Right. Now my father was the eldest son and he

[00:08:44] because of the custom in Koreshia, Dalmasha etc at the time he was distant to go into the church. Why I didn't know that. Yeah no starting off as a novitiate and eventually to become a priest.

[00:09:09] So is this Paul is it? No this is my dad. Oh this is his granddad okay. Yeah he developed a very rare blood disease which stopped him from doing that and a Russian doctor helped

[00:09:26] save his life and like for example they put leeches on his body and he was a young teenager well yeah about 12. It sucked the bad blood out. Yeah it's crazy. My grandmother had to sterilize his food

[00:09:49] which meant that she would cook him chicken but it would be in a glass a very thick glass bottle or ceramic jug on the fire so it was sterilized that didn't come into contact with anything else

[00:10:09] and that's what saved his life and so my grandfather saved the money to bring his son my father across and he traveled with a large group of immigrants from that part of the

[00:10:30] world. I think it was a six-week voyage and when he came to Auckland Harbour his father wasn't there to meet him. He cried his heart out and the other Dalmatians took pity on him and looked after him

[00:10:52] until my granddad arrived two weeks later. Right arrived from up north two weeks later. Yeah he promised to be there when the ship arrived but he didn't come. Geez I mean look at it today right whereas your parents you're trying to pick your kid up from school

[00:11:15] and you're five minutes late they're waiting by the curb everyone's freaking out like you know that's like that and they start finding you you know for being late or whatever there you got a kid

[00:11:23] in a foreign country you know two weeks without his dad showing up no way to contact them. Yeah not knowing which way was up. Welcome to your new life. Oh yes it was hard and

[00:11:38] it's a place called Oratia which was north of Auckland and he eventually got a job digging drains in the orchards and you know digging there was no equipment. Machinery and stuff. No machinery. Not going to afford that stuff I guess. Yeah he dug trenches didn't he from memory.

[00:12:01] A bigger pardon? He dug trenches and holes and stuff from memory. Yeah yeah yeah that's how he was so strong. The orchards needed water and so the drains were dug in the ground and they were pretty deep you know where they went down four or five feet

[00:12:19] and they were at least six to eight feet wide so there was a lot of digging. They go on for kilometers I imagine. Yeah and he saved up his money together with his father to bring

[00:12:37] my uncle Paul out. Right. The youngest one and eventually they managed to bring my grandmother out. Wow I mean that's totally the total immigrant story isn't it you know. Just working like an immigrant and just working for your family. I mean really

[00:12:59] you talk about survival you know when people talk about surviving versus thriving you know you gotta thrive and it's like you know what you've never probably really had to survive right

[00:13:10] like and even when you think you have to survive like you say oh look I'm really cash flows tight and I can money we can't afford to buy the usual groceries that go out as much. Okay well imagine

[00:13:20] going arriving in a new country with you know no money no job. No father. No father and now you just make it work. I mean corset that is 1,000% survival right. Yeah that's all you've got.

[00:13:36] That's real trauma. Yeah that's you're right and that's probably not a great way but an important way to start the story in more recent history like I hate to go back a few more generations you know but who knows what was going on back then

[00:13:53] but even just within the horizon of our own life experience to see the genesis or you understand the genesis of the trauma. I mean there's another part there's another lost part of that story right.

[00:14:10] Oh here is bucket load son. Well why don't we why don't we why don't we park that and because I think the whole this whole podcast will be about exploring all of that stuff right

[00:14:21] like not this one particularly but this however many we do. You see my father's experience impacted on me and I'm a direct consequence of that environment. Yeah that's right we are all

[00:14:41] a reflection of that to some degree. And I'm sure some of our contacts in the past or non-contacts because of the marriage break up have impacted on you and they weren't intentional

[00:14:58] on my part but I can see how that's happened. Yeah you know it's funny I've thought about this over the years about the trauma you know our job is to try and inflict less trauma on the next

[00:15:13] generation than was inflicted upon us right like oh no no no I'm all fashion more trauma. You could turn it around and dial it up a bit. Train that little bugger's static behave.

[00:15:26] Well you know look I still grew up in the area with the strap and you know all the rest of them a spoon and all that but no I mean you know my job as a father was just to try and

[00:15:38] provide a better livelihood and a better environment and better father and a more present person you know then maybe I had with you right and we can explore that in future episodes too. You're right but that's the job of every father. That's right exactly I think so

[00:15:54] and this is a mission here right and then you know I guess coming around to that point you talk let me start with the the break up because you and mum split up when I was three right when

[00:16:09] officially left part of company I guess and you know I probably never gave that a second thought until my first son was three and then I started to understand through his eyes what it would mean

[00:16:30] if I just wasn't around one day or for a week or two weeks or a month or a year. I'm like he would go what where you know I don't know and then it made me really

[00:16:42] go you poor little guy like you lost your dad you know and by this stage we already had decent relationship and everything but I started to understand the trauma you know but it wasn't it wasn't for 28 years after. So it's off on the way son I mean

[00:17:00] you weren't aware because of the limited contact with us or so with me and this was after your mother moved to Auckland where I had taken job with a very large building conglomerate. How much pain I went through self-inflicted

[00:17:34] I'm in total agreement about being separated from you too or it turned out to be three. Yeah so the listeners older sister 18 months older than me and younger brother

[00:17:51] three years younger than me so and then so when I said I was three when you guys broke up he was zero. Effectively correct but maybe this is a distorted viewpoint but it's mine I've always felt that the father's suffer a lot of pain

[00:18:16] but the macho thing makes us cover it up like we're not supposed to cry I mean I cry a lot these days I even cry over silly advertisements. Well I think we've all done that I think that's more of a thing that you maybe just need to have

[00:18:39] an emotional release more than you know anything else and to be ready for that and let that happen. Well I think that was a really interesting and important way to start the conversation

[00:18:56] fatherhood you know to understand about granddad's journey and I guess you know how he ended up showing up for you which we can discuss more at length but now I'd like I guess like to flip

[00:19:09] the script a little bit and talk about my dad i.e. yourself all right I guess my I'm going to be kind because really we've already had those conversations right I mean

[00:19:22] the reason we're doing this you know this is now there's joy in each other there's love for each other and there's we know that the more we share stuff now more we share that joy the better off we both

[00:19:34] are right am I speaking out of turn here I hope that's right like we no no you're not we've had similar struggles but in different frameworks totally totally and we formed an

[00:19:49] alignment and an understanding in what have you as friends and you know father and son and what have you so I guess you know just to paint a really light outline of my childhood and my father

[00:20:04] my father was always you know Matt Jealousy the the cool the cool dude right he is here's a guy had the parties you know he had you know as a young boy he had girlfriends you know

[00:20:16] which I was kind of myself kind of interested in and and also you know seemed to live a fun life you know certainly certainly worked hard from what I could see but I was helping you out

[00:20:33] in your various ventures and you did have a few you know I remember I remember washing dishes at the what your takeaway shop on K Road I remember you know helping out at

[00:20:46] the chicken barrel no no hang on it wasn't takeaway shop okay right it was a big shop or something it was the 24 hour cafe the 23 hour cafe that's right that's significant because okay the area that

[00:21:00] was in in Auckland was at that stage New Zealand's equivalent to uh like Kings Cross King's Cross that's right yeah yeah yeah well so so yeah I was like I guess I'm just thinking as you're talking

[00:21:16] in that I was kind of lucky in a way that I still got to work and see you in a productive sort of way even though it was sporadic you know and even though I certainly there were times where it would

[00:21:26] have been great to have my dad around or a consistent man around in my life because you know there were a few men coming and going yeah actually that's a good term son a consistent

[00:21:39] male role role model yeah yeah yeah so I you know like I remember reading this book Manhood by Steve Bidolf you know we can talk about that down the track but he said uh that you know uh if you don't

[00:21:53] have a proper or a strong male role model in those formative years you end up basing your idea of manhood on cardboard cutouts movie characters and local gang leaders you know um and I I did that I had

[00:22:10] this out dotted outline of what a man was because of the only influences I had around me which were all not men and if they were men they weren't very stable men and so anyways I guess there was a loss

[00:22:27] there but where I did gain was that I did get to work with you and um through that you know even right through to your you know jazz cafe Martha's Corner you know the all-fated Martha's Corner um where I

[00:22:41] got to actually start working the bar and really that was the birth of my and gave you a free drinks which I just know about I don't remember doing that no no I claim the fifth on that one

[00:22:55] but so so in a way you know we've had our ups and downs right and and yes there was a gap there in my formative young years as a teenager and young man um but you know I figure to some

[00:23:11] degree we've done really well considering where you came from um with your dad's heritage where what I came from was a broken marriage you know and and so the 70s and 80s where everyone was just

[00:23:25] so it wasn't our intention to break up because both your mother and I wanted children and loved the three of you um it was just that we couldn't live with each other anymore

[00:23:44] and yeah and and we we both agreed we didn't want to bring our children up in an environment where there was constant fighting and bickering I mean I don't mean physical fighting I mean

[00:24:00] um verbal abuse exact and so we chose the other option which was a very painful option for both of us um trying to do it for the right reasons but we still stuffed up oh yeah and you know what

[00:24:21] uh so we have come to uh an understanding about that I think I we had that time at Palm Beach where I forgave you and we shed some tears and and you know the whole thing was really about a closure

[00:24:36] of all of that episode you know no need to hang on to any of that stuff anymore sorry to interrupt you son but you've just said something very important when my dad needed to be looked after

[00:24:51] and of course I was an only child um I took him in and to our home here and we looked after him and he was really happy and my partner funny enough who is Joe Annen but

[00:25:15] referred to as Joe same name is Grand Vasiliev so I was sandwiched between two Joes two Joes yeah yeah um she got on extremely well with my dad and my dad really appreciated everything

[00:25:31] but I would sit down with him time to time and you know we'd talk about the program he was watching or whatever um and I would try to have that closure that you had with me and Palm Beach with him

[00:25:44] yeah yeah and he would always just say no right he couldn't even contemplate opening up like that the vulnerability I mean he talked to my partner Joe about everything and the two of them got on well which pleased me well

[00:26:05] hmm but oh but I desperately wanted to when he was happy have that closure but he just pulled down the shutters and a pain has stayed with me for the rest of my life have you been able to forgive him post you know oh yes yes I mean

[00:26:30] that's a constructive healing mechanism but it hurt like hell oh it's so primal dad yeah I feel that and I have been in my own private hell around that front yes and that's that's one of the

[00:26:49] reasons we're doing this because there is so much pain associated with being a man like I I don't know any other way to say it everyone everyone women diminish it very often they go

[00:27:02] hey he's got man flu oh you know he's all you know he's nothing big he's just being a you know pussy or you know whatever and I I have started to get frost a bit frustrated and I'm not doing

[00:27:13] an Andrew Tate here right or you know like I've started to get a bit frustrated with with the the expectation of you know being very politically correct and courteous and

[00:27:24] mindful and of women's needs and having men being treated as the dunces you know they're not on tv ads that the idiots who don't know how to clean a house or you know don't know how to work look

[00:27:37] up children or they've got the man flu or diminishing their standing and I've sort of yeah I guess part of it for me and part of doing this podcast is saying no you know we feel pain too man we

[00:27:48] feel shame there's a reason why male suicide is the largest cause of injury related death in the country in the country right like and the worst thing about it now son I apologize for interrupting you

[00:28:03] but the rate of teenage male suicide is the highest it's ever been that's it and this is due to social media and its abuse oh that is a whole another topic for a whole another podcast but

[00:28:18] I absolutely agree I mean it is we are I could cry thinking about the pain and the danger that lies within the these these the social media webs that are just malicious um out there

[00:28:33] but but I guess just to bring it back you know I don't want to sort of yeah I don't want to kind of take it down a dark to a dark place but

[00:28:41] we're not here we can discuss anything yeah I guess I I guess I was thinking about wrapping up on a light note but maybe um but but you know the through line here has been you know we talked

[00:28:53] about your father arriving you know on a ship you know not having his dad not around for two weeks I didn't I didn't even know that that is just crap I'm just thinking about myself

[00:29:03] it hanging at a phone box but I'm like eating out of phone box you know whatever right through to to you know to to me you know and and yeah you're my relationship with you and yours

[00:29:14] and my mom's and then then further to me having kids as well and and the pain you know I hate to say it but you know not just for the kids but also with relationships men we're so as you say

[00:29:31] simple we don't know how to express these rainbow of emotions and and we bottle it up and then they come at it in a in a opportune times and and everything and no one's guiding us we're not talking and then

[00:29:44] obviously you know some people take the that worst possible decision you know they rob the world of their their light and you know so I reckon we just got to talk and talk openly talk honestly

[00:29:57] and just start by you know putting a balm on this on the soul of this relationship between father and son and children and and and then get everyone talking get everyone talking well I can tell you

[00:30:10] right now I'm not perfect I've never been perfect and I never will but I can look back on the passages in my life and I know where I have made positive contributions and I'm I've got open ears now to any critique about my negative contributions or

[00:30:40] positive contributions that could have been made but weren't made um which is a kind of wordy way of saying uh I'm sorry okay so one of the sections that I thought

[00:30:58] would be a good source of content and also would be kind of interesting and something we both could speak to is a section I call emails from dad emails from dad this one I've chosen um just at random

[00:31:17] because you send a lot of emails uh with various things on them quotes and all sorts but I'm sharing this one up on the screen now um for those that are watching but I'll read it out for those

[00:31:30] that are listening and this one was called time and hopefully I can read it all um clearly we live in a world of conventions things that prescribe our lives one of these is measurement dividing everything into comprehensible and in most cases you utilitarian intervals handy to work with

[00:31:50] in both the field and workshop and without which an underlay of universally agreed this then spaces order would descend back into chaos which it came okay I'm sure I didn't read the punctuation

[00:32:02] right there but anyway we oblige and work with this stuff because we've been taught to do so and societies of whichever kind need structure as a cohesive glue of cooperation hence the requirement for universal constants and then you might note I'm not arguing either devolution

[00:32:20] or revolution merely a slight rethinking of some of our givens so what if time was fluid you wrote without boundaries such as past present and future each of them intermingling and and something for argument's sake we call an internal present here's a crude physical example a high

[00:32:35] mountain ledge containing a deep pool of dark water let's call that the present it's fed by a stream we'll call the future running away from it down the mountain side is a stream we call the

[00:32:47] past uh what what's really interesting is that in any given moment the three so-called separate dimensions of time are the same thing within the deep pool forget the trickles running in an out focus on the pool now we're understand and starting to understand how gifted person

[00:33:03] for argument's sake clairvoyance I call them divers can provide convincing information regarding either the past present or the future I've been there I've seen it and I've lived it for me time is ephemeral ephemeral and whimsical as a child's balloon on a windy day

[00:33:18] oh yes and then you're at yes it's real but get caught up in it and your life not your own oh that was hard um so time it was easier to write than when you read it I'm exhausted

[00:33:36] I'm exhausted um so you wrote this thing about time and when I read it I immediately when you said about the pool of water example the river example I immediately jumped to Herman

[00:33:46] Hesse's book Siddhartha of course which a neighbor had lent to me and then bugged me to give it back to her after a few weeks because she obviously valued it so much um but I wish he didn't because

[00:34:00] I wanted to reread it and that was so good there was a movie done by a famous producer uh and it was in the 60s and and I saw this movie and it was Siddhartha

[00:34:14] are you and it was his journey from from being a prince uh to being the Buddha and it was so powerful um I'm gonna watch it yeah it was done in the 60s probably 64 65

[00:34:33] and it's a beautiful movie and it's incredibly evocative um well uh that I'm looking for right now but the the the point of me bringing that up after reading your email was that the end of that book

[00:34:50] from memory I haven't read it for a number of years but the memory was that he realized that the river was time and that it flowed it was all everywhere all at once constantly moving but still

[00:35:02] you know a solid but like yeah he kind of realized that was like the time that was the I don't know how what I'm saying um he realized that was the message I guess

[00:35:15] uh I have forgotten the actual quote from the movie but this is an approximation because you know I'm old and forgetful um the river flows constantly the sorry the river river is constantly changing but always stays the same

[00:35:42] that's right and so you then I wrote that back to you and you went bang on or something um so we're in exactly the same uh perspective and I guess I need to ask you why were you

[00:35:55] contemplating time at that point what what spurred you on to to sort of well I don't know write that and think about it and send it there are several answers son um one is being a geriatric I haven't got much time left

[00:36:13] but that's uh no mortality didn't cause me to write it mm-hmm um I've my life has been a quest for meaning and I'm constantly uh looking at our social and cultural and psychological perspectives and try and make sense of it

[00:36:44] don't you're trying to make sense of them and it it's a constant process in a matter I just don't sit here you know looking at the flowers even though I grow them

[00:36:58] um you have to embrace change no matter how old you are it's more difficult when you get old and you know sedentary well tell me about it just trying to get switched speakers on your computer

[00:37:12] almost drove me insane sorry about that son yeah you can tell the difference between the old and the younger I my favorite saying is because technology always fails um where's the five-year-old when you

[00:37:29] need one yeah but sorry but I but I distracted you so so you wrote it basically got your reflections of time making making sort of sense of to be honest son uh a lot of these things come to

[00:37:45] me and I don't know where they come from and they they caused me to think in a different pattern and I feel the need to express it so that I can further understand it myself got you got you

[00:38:03] yeah and also share it and so that's kind of where it came from and I don't know if I mentioned this to you the other night but just maybe as a sort of way of closing closing down this first episode the

[00:38:17] I just had this inside the other night and maybe yesterday actually that there were things I wanted to share like I'd go out and I'd go on a nice walk and I'm like oh wow that photo is beautiful

[00:38:30] take a photo and send it to someone right and I kind of think to myself hang on a minute just enjoy the sunset you know enjoy the vista and I thought maybe instead of that that inkling to

[00:38:38] share that photo is actually me speaking to myself saying go deeper into this moment you know if pretend you're sharing with your share with yourself yes yes yes share it with yourself don't and then I thought about giving other people I want to I'm thinking of this other

[00:38:54] person I'm sitting in this song or I'm thinking about you know them and so I'm like am I thinking about them or am I thinking am I talking to myself here and I wonder sometimes if those reflections

[00:39:09] and things we're sharing are like you said things that we're only doing so we can understand them better um and we can start holding and express that firstly to study it

[00:39:20] you've put up something which connects with the rock the pop rock concerts I go to on a regular basis every concert there's hundreds if not thousands of iPhones or sorry mobile phones being held up I've been I've been there and I've probably

[00:39:46] been guilty of that yeah and a little bit they're recording the show and I know they're recording the show so good to share with other people to say I was there yeah and yet I don't record anything

[00:40:03] because because you're actually there it goes inside me there that's where I record it um oh my god this is a whole another discussion on having versus being right yes it is yes oh my god we could go so deep there the me in him podcast

[00:40:27] but look we're gonna save stuff for a future episode I think that's I think we did all right like um we chatted about you know life the universe and everything and fatherhood particularly

[00:40:40] um at least got the ball rolling what do you reckon well you know for a two man man shed we're doing rather well two men men shitty word is gonna like that isn't it honest talk I just

[00:40:53] on the men shed um I do believe they're in need of a rejuvenation apparently because the you know I've heard the demographics getting a little bit older and it's not quite as funky as

[00:41:04] maybe the you know maybe we need to do a men's you know nightclub maybe just a bar oh yeah you're suggesting we have a pre-teen men's club pre no I'm not suggesting I don't know I don't even know what you said that the me in him podcast

[00:41:23] cool well uh nice one dad um we will meet again online do another one of these things soon any final what words of wisdom I've recalled one which which goes back to the days of sale or no actually it goes back to say the first world war

[00:41:46] um which Tom Petty immortalized in his first hit which was damn the torpedoes mm-hmm all right I don't get that one well I it damned them to torpedoes means it and this is a male thing um it doesn't matter what life throws at you

[00:42:18] you are just gonna get rid of it evade it avoid it fix it okay uh but but but it's it's a nautical term in in the so it's like f the torpedoes and no it it's damn the torpedoes yeah

[00:42:39] but it's like you know we go we shouldn't go out there captain well if the torpedoes we're going oh look I'm so PC son you know well I'm sorry I said if I'm very PC myself um and and uh my

[00:42:54] theory on that is I call it Godzilla theory because I used to watch those Godzilla films where they'd be like getting the guys from the shingons out and it's still coming out of the harbor and

[00:43:04] they're like okay let's get the cannons and the bazookas and it's like still popping off it and then they're like no he's still coming at this get the nuclear warheads and they're

[00:43:13] still going I'm like you know what I need a bit more Godzilla in me just keep going through the through the warheads through the machine gun fire through the smoke I'm still standing okay both of those um Godzilla and I'm still standing uh great signatures tunes for men

[00:43:38] for me in him podcast