After 10 episodes of the Me&Him podcast, we finally arrive at the subject of becoming a new father - and how ill-equipped Dad and I both were for the task at hand!
We ponder why the survival skills of parenthood isn't taught more at school and why it's common for those with children to smile knowingly to those exuberant couples announcing they are soon to have a child (why spoil the moment?)
What’s on your mind? Reach out!
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[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The Me in Him Podcast
[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, welcome back to the Me in Him Podcast, where we have candid conversations between me and my dad about fatherhood, manhood, the universe, the metaverse.
[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What else, Dad? What else have we covered? Spirituality?
[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We can't talk about women that use too much of a problem.
[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's a whole other podcast. You've had a few female visitors, I believe, and guests.
[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I had my spot of the sounds of things.
[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: She left this morning and I thought, oh, wonderful. Matt's got a free day just to do what Matt needs to do for himself.
[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And another bloody woman rings up and has to come round.
[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, hey, you know, there are, as you said, you know we...
[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: The problem with being too bloody or too popular, I should say.
[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Too popular? Too darn spunky at 80.
[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. So actually speaking of which, you said you were going on a date of sorts yesterday. What happened with that?
[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Or at least a lunch with someone.
[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was one of the unmitigated disasters. Yesterday was full of disasters.
[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sorry to hear that.
[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I took the wrong turning on the motorway. I ended up being one and a half hours late.
[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God.
[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And this was my second attempt because I got the timing wrong.
[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought I thought it was quarter to 12.
[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was hurtling down the highway and managed to get a phone call through.
[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And she said, no, no, it's quarter to two.
[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went back home and I attended to the slow cooked oxtail, which was dinner.
[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And by that stage it had been cooking at least 14 hours.
[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I hurtled off and took the wrong turning.
[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I was three quarters an hour late.
[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It was an interesting day.
[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. Well, we don't need to go into details, but I was sort of wishing you all the best and everything on that front.
[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and what the really interesting part about it was she's got exactly the same name as my ex-partner.
[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Who was sitting in my house entertaining a friend.
[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny, isn't it? How it goes.
[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Andrew, you're right. Yeah. Lucky you've got a lot of it there.
[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So on my side, yeah, I actually, I went out and had a really...
[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't believe it. Not you.
[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess you could say a woman. No woman would want you.
[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I have been talking about being single for, I've been single for about a year or so.
[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Just, you know, getting looking after myself and all the rest of it.
[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've had tried to get out of it. Been on a couple of dates, but it wasn't that interesting.
[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But this little young lovely young lady, I'm going to say young lady. She's 42, you know, younger than me.
[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: She's not the one your mother recommended.
[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: No, don't let that go to mum's head.
[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Because mum always knows best. Mum knows best. She's actually played matchmaker. It's classic.
[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, all the apps have failed me. So I go, alright, I'm giving up.
[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But good old mum comes through. And you forgot your mother app.
[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right. And she gets a number of this girl who works at the village she's at.
[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're in your 50s and you still don't listen to your mother.
[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no. I'm starting to listen now. Let me tell you, she's she's bang on the money with this one.
[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, we had a lovely dinner, went out to a nice restaurant and it was just so lovely just sharing some time,
[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: sharing some laughs and what have you. And so yeah, I'm actually feeling pretty good about life at the moment.
[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Not not just because of that. It's just a lot. There's a lot of things that are going going well.
[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And look, to be honest, listening to the podcast, the last few episodes that we've produced,
[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I've actually been smiling and laughing along to our conversations.
[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I have to admit me too. I listen to is particularly I think I've listened to episode three about 10 times.
[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if we're just getting we're getting high on our own supply here.
[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But let's hope that other people can resonate too.
[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously the purpose of what we're doing here is it's not just tapping into your stories and your background
[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and making a bit of a legacy piece for our kids and associated family,
[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but also potentially inspiring conversations as well for other father, sons and related men folk in different sort of dynamics.
[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really hopeful dad that this has some sort of larger impact than there may be just us having good time,
[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: which we usually do when we chat anyway.
[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, refer them to Mike and the Mechanics, The Living Years.
[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Because that's what we're doing.
[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: We're actually having a proper father-son dialogue before I die.
[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Well, I was thinking, oh, shit, you know, I never got around to it.
[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely. And the fact that it's recorded for posterity is awesome.
[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So look, I'm really looking forward to having a chat with you today.
[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And as we just briefly discussed, we're going to talk about fatherhood and becoming fathers,
[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: which we both have pretty good experience at.
[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. You were a little bit more so than me.
[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You're giving me a little bit more.
[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll be helping out the, you know, the world, the population, the birth rate.
[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really looking forward to that.
[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So are you ready to jump in?
[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll always jump into any quagmire. That's my specialty.
[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, watch out. Look before you leap. Here we go.
[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So for the last number of episodes, Dad, we've been tapping into the story of your background,
[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: your childhood, you know, your uni life.
[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then more recently, we've talked, well, you've talked about mum and how you met
[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, you talked about living, which you live near the train lines, I think it was
[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and painted a real picture there.
[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't know a lot of these stories, right?
[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of nice to have the visual and have those gaps filled in, you know,
[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: because I can relate to it in a way in my own sort of life
[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and early relationships with different women.
[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think we've got to the point now, and correct me if you think differently here, Dad,
[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that we're going to delve into actually having kids, having our kids, which is a real...
[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You talk about transition at one point and one of the other podcasts.
[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That is a transition. Like I don't care who you are.
[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Massive transition.
[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Female. Oh, it's such a massive change.
[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure people who are listening to this podcast who have had kids will,
[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, will understand and relate to the idea of the massive life shift that goes on
[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: when you have kids because you just don't know, no matter how many books you read,
[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: how much study you do, how many people you talk to, you have no idea what's coming.
[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: No one prepares you.
[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a finding of the education system as well.
[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: At a certain point when kids are reaching puberty,
[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: there's various things that they should be told that will help them in their progress.
[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And one is the consequences of having children.
[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things.
[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Should they choose to do so?
[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean just we could have to do an episode on what kids should be taught at school, right?
[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, how to centre themselves, how to de-stress,
[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: how to change a spark plug.
[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, there's lots of stuff.
[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: How to deal with life is basically what it should be called.
[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Because we all, literally, we are virgins when we leave school and we start to experiment.
[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And then life comes to maxes in place.
[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a hard line of curve.
[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It is, it is.
[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So with that in mind, would your mind just kind of, I guess,
[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: just picking up from where you left off, which was, you know,
[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you'd met a beautiful lady, looked like Elizabeth Taylor.
[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you obviously started to really bond with her.
[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: She did at the time.
[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you know, Elizabeth Taylor wasn't Elizabeth Taylor anymore.
[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But then I guess I'm just interested in filling the gap right to having kids.
[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I know some of this story, but again it's bitsy.
[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'd like to hear from your opinion.
[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, when we started to get serious, when we got engaged,
[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: we had this conversation and we agreed between the two of us.
[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We would have a family and we'd have between two and four.
[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That's good to do up front.
[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And we ended up with between two and four.
[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We ended up with three.
[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So we had that commitment.
[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll tell you an interesting story about, you know,
[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the home that you were effectively born in or we brought you back to the hospital.
[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a thing in New Zealand at that time called capitalising on the family benefit.
[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And they allowed young couples to do that who've had the first baby.
[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say hypothetically, the family benefit was $10 a month.
[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And they'd give you 10 years worth of it as a deposit on a house.
[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.
[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So we applied for that and it was very close to Christmas.
[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It was about two days, I'm sorry, two and a half weeks before Christmas.
[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And the bureaucracy moves very slowly as everyone knows.
[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And particularly in was it 1965, it moved very slowly.
[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Everything was pen and paper and whatnot.
[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And I decided to beat the system.
[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went to one department, one government department,
[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and I got a bundle of papers and this guy had signed off on.
[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I'd said, what's the next step in?
[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, we post it to blah, blah, blah in the same city.
[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You said I'll take it there.
[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, how long will I take it?
[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, oh, Sunday, it'll be well after Christmas.
[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, well, would you mind if I actually came up,
[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: picked up the sign papers and delivered them myself?
[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, nobody's ever asked me that before, but why not?
[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I did that with about eight of them.
[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And we got the house.
[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And two and a half weeks before Christmas,
[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and we moved in before Christmas.
[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. Well done.
[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Was it important to you to have that sort of, you know,
[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that bricks and mortar?
[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, of course.
[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: All young couples want to do.
[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And we were no exception.
[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You want to be settled in your own house.
[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, as I think I mentioned in a previous episode,
[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the paradigm in the 60s was that the man worked
[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and he could earn enough money to provide for all the household bills, etc.
[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Things change now, right?
[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: The mother stayed at home and looked after the children.
[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've seen some studies that show, you know,
[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: comparatively the amount of money that you were able to make
[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: in those days that could afford that,
[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that could look after a family of a few, you know, wife
[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and a couple of kids and still pay the bills.
[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Today, you could take two full-time working couples.
[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely right, son. The world has changed.
[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And they still kind of fought the house.
[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So you got the house together.
[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And so how did the whole, you know, obviously at some point
[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you went, OK, let's have some kids or was there,
[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: was it an accident? Was it planned?
[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: How did it work?
[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we had a three year gap as a young couple,
[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, buying things.
[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course it was in the 60s, the 60s day call, you know,
[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a white faux leather, it was made of plastic,
[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: couch with burnt orange cushions and all that sort of thing.
[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.
[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just thinking about that.
[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: What would be called an op shop today,
[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02]: a four-micre table and chairs from the 50s?
[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Which we had.
[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Stunning.
[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's probably coming back around again.
[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They are. They're worth a fortune today,
[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but they were worth nothing then.
[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And we set up our little loveliest, you know, for the family.
[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, lovely.
[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Which both of us really wanted.
[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And your sister came along in 1968
[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and what were you, 70 or 71?
[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I was 70, yeah.
[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not 70.
[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And Damien was 74.
[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: How was obviously having a daughter and, you know,
[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to share a little bit about my experience here,
[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: but your first child, how did you go with that?
[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like obviously you made me excited.
[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Well first of all, you're absolutely thrilled.
[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And it wasn't fashionable those days,
[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but your mother chose natural childbirth.
[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was literally there for the whole process.
[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can tell you from experience,
[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the placenta is a multicolored thing when it detaches.
[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Just as a quick aside, before my first child,
[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: they showed us the video of the, you know,
[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the woman giving birth.
[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, yeah, Antion, you know,
[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that's fine. I'll tend all that stuff.
[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a good partner, whatever.
[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember sitting there and we're watching
[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and in this group and watch this video.
[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I was a bit, I was a bit shell shocked
[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because I'm like, I've spent my whole life
[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: looking at putting things in there
[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and something is popping out.
[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't quite wrap my head around it.
[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a multicolored event.
[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God.
[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It all makes the rainbow look pale.
[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So you were there for the whole thing.
[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: How did it go?
[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And how did you feel afterwards?
[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And what were the months past that like for you?
[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It was great.
[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's a huge learning curve,
[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: which is why I made that comment about
[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: school doesn't prepare for life.
[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: You were the second one and your sister
[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and you screamed all night.
[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't get any goddamn sleep.
[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: No matter what we did.
[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I heard it was a nightmare.
[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure you were dry and, you know,
[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: change your nappies and, you know,
[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's amazing how much perspiration comes out of the body
[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: of a young baby when it's screaming.
[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the entire bassinet was wet.
[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a question of just changing the clothes.
[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You had to change the mattress as well.
[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.
[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that.
[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was only your brother Damien
[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: who was the quietest,
[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: loveliest baby.
[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Your first two drove us absolutely nuts.
[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We mentioned a little bit about birth order
[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: in one of the last episodes.
[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we spoke a little bit about the third born.
[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You kind of don't, you're not quite as
[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: helicopter parenting, you know.
[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think this part of it is that you've done this before?
[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you can do the naughty things
[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: like have a glass of wine or whatever
[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: because you realize that, you know,
[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: it doesn't really do any damage.
[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's only excess, which is the problem.
[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But for the, you know, the first one or two, you know,
[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: she abstained from just about everything.
[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the right thing to do, I guess, right?
[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to be as, you know,
[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: give it all the odds possible.
[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you try and do the right thing.
[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's only with experience
[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you learn how to balance it.
[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I know this is jumping forward in time.
[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: That's fine.
[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But your sister, when she was about three or four,
[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: had a little friend right next door,
[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: a little Audrey, and they'd play together.
[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was wintertime.
[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so both mothers had rugged up the children
[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and they were sitting there making mud pies.
[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And because they were nicely rugged up.
[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's before we had iPads and everything for the kids.
[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We made mud pies.
[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: No, but they were very small.
[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure.
[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And then your mother said to me, Matt,
[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: come in and have a look at this and be quiet.
[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, okay.
[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I realized why she said be quiet
[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: because they were eating the mud pies.
[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is why she never had any goddamn allergies
[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: or whatever.
[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, that's right.
[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Something we've been suffering.
[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Your mother went out and said,
[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: no, your girl's having a nice time.
[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you getting a bit dirty?
[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And she very tactfully diffuses the situation.
[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I spoke to Audrey's mother.
[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the two mothers took the two girls simply
[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: because we didn't want the meding piles to do it.
[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: They'd already started.
[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And we worried as young parents.
[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But they came out of it fine.
[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess, you know, again, first child,
[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, they're going to do things first.
[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to experience things first.
[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And potentially that's where you learn that,
[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, not everything's going to result
[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: in them being maimed for life or whatever you.
[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So, OK, so, so I guess just to wrap this little bit up
[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and we'll obviously continue the conversation.
[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of how it changed you as a man, as a person,
[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: what would you say that fatherhood really did for you?
[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Or didn't do?
[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to become a father.
[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Just as your mother wanted to become a mother.
[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't know what the hell we were in for.
[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But fortunately, we were young and strong and we survived it,
[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: which is why even though the fertility rates go down with age,
[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not a wise idea for a woman or a mature couple
[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02]: in that age group to have children.
[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: By then your work patterns are settled
[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and you don't have the stamina to deal
[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: with these little bloody monsters that you love for Oshisleep.
[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: The resilience even just like how do you cope
[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: with all this onslaught of new stuff when you are kind of
[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: set in a bit of a pattern and routine?
[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine that is tough.
[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So look, what I might do is I might flip it the other way around
[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: just sort of share it, just touch on what I found for me personally.
[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Similar bit different.
[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's do that next.
[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was good to hear about
[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: like your experience with becoming a father.
[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a slightly different take on it, to be honest.
[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Nine is more.
[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we all...
[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And you did yours in a different age period?
[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Different age.
[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Different mind state, different world, everything.
[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess I might just cast back a little bit to start with
[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of, you know, I've shared a bit about...
[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've been quite candid to be honest about my background
[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of being kind of somewhat codependent
[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and female company.
[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Seeing...
[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You're using...
[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Or not using necessarily, but treating some of the relationships
[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a bit as a security blanket over the years.
[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's not me putting myself down.
[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just me looking back and going,
[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, I probably did that.
[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: No biggie.
[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They were getting something from me.
[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I was getting something from them.
[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's all fine.
[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've certainly changed and evolved over the years.
[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So long as things are mutual, that's fine.
[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. That's right.
[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And we don't know what we don't know
[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in many of these cases and relationships, right?
[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So with that is a bit of a backdrop
[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: when Hal and I first decided to have kids,
[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: much like yourself, we wanted to have, you know,
[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: a few kids, not just one, but maybe three.
[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And we ended up...
[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We did have three.
[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was always something that was important to me.
[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And finally, one of the drivers for that
[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: was because I worked out at a very young age
[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that, you know, I remember you sharing in one of the last
[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: podcasts about your realisation about death and dying
[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and everything, like casting forward...
[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that was most unusual.
[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody cares about the mortality at age 13.
[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So my one was at the age of 10, which was...
[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, tell me about it.
[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've never heard about that one.
[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd looked and I guess, I don't know if we're just...
[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: If being a seeker runs in the family,
[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but we're a ponderer or we just had too much time on our own,
[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But the thing that I had worked out
[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: by the age of 10 is that the purpose of life
[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: is to have kids.
[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't see any other reason to be alive.
[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: The species going.
[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't...
[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And we both made a terrible mistake
[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: considering the way the human race has gone.
[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't know about that.
[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Even though our kids are nice.
[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't get me wrong.
[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not talking about a mistake in that category.
[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting out of that caveat.
[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So I kind of worked out as a young age,
[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: like I think we're here to have kids.
[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought, alright, I'm going to be a dad
[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's important to me.
[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think part of what was driven by
[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe feeling a bit under fathered as well.
[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I'm going to have kids
[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm going to be a father.
[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You may well have thought because
[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: your mother and I broke up when you were very young
[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: subconsciously that I'm going to do a better job
[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: than my dad did.
[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Mate, you could be right as well.
[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of factors play into that.
[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't solve anything.
[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But it seemed pretty obvious that really the reason we're here
[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: is to procreate and continue the gene pool.
[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was my thinking going into it.
[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was always keen to have kids
[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'd sort of...
[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I played the field, but I'd certainly had a lot
[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of different experiences
[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and I was lucky enough to have a teenage years
[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: where I could sort of do what I wanted
[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and I had a lot of freedom.
[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And when it came to partnering seriously
[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and settled down, I was quite happy to
[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: not only just do that, but then think about
[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: becoming a dad because it wasn't going to be an accident.
[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It was going to be like much like yourself dad,
[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: it was going to be planned.
[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Not maybe not as well-planned as having that whole
[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: house bought and paid for before we did it.
[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But certainly it was intentional.
[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You were the same as me son.
[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean you didn't follow my example,
[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: but I mean you had the same feeling
[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that yes, you did want to be a dad
[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: at some point in time.
[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So here's where I'm coming to now.
[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It was all planned and worked hard to get...
[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I didn't realise, I don't know about you,
[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd spent all this time trying not to get people pregnant.
[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Then when you're trying to get a woman pregnant...
[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually not easy.
[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a different ball game, isn't it?
[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like what?
[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to wait for a certain time.
[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not intended by the way.
[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well yeah, there's definitely balls involved.
[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But the old violation cycle,
[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the checking and then the health
[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and the wellbeing and there was all these things
[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like hang on, it's actually harder
[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: than I...
[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: No one told me that it was actually to have a child.
[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean some people do it by accident, it seems easy.
[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're intentional about it,
[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it actually is harder than you think.
[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of revelatory to me.
[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like okay, well I thought this was just happening.
[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I've put a lot in the bird that.
[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when you stop taking the pill
[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or you don't wear a condom and you just get pregnant.
[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: No.
[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually...
[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of hard work and when you're immature
[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: you think oh, that'll be joyous.
[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean no protection.
[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: We can just go for it.
[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: She grabs you and you go,
[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to get in the bedroom now.
[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: This is when it's happening.
[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like what?
[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's my cycle.
[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.
[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was all new to me right?
[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like yes boss.
[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: What do I got to do?
[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't perform under this pressure.
[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm no longer a sex object, I'm a sperm object.
[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not an object that's right.
[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So come down.
[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I know, I know.
[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was all for a greater good right?
[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, after all the hard work
[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: she gets pregnant and we have...
[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I had my eldest son
[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and dad, I've got to tell you
[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a shocking store for me
[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: because I was all rainbows and unicorns for me.
[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like yeah, we'll have children
[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and some kids and I'm the first kid
[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm going dad this is great
[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and I was excited
[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and then the hard cold reality
[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: kicked in and I'm like...
[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Son I've got to interrupt you here.
[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: This is why when the young couple
[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: they've been in partnership for some time
[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: be it marriage or living together
[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever the mechanism
[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and they come to you one day
[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're a mum and dad
[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and they say oh we've got some news for you
[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know exactly what they're going to say
[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is why a potential grandparent
[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: smiles so much
[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: because we know you have no bloody idea
[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: of the torment ahead of you.
[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you just bought yourself
[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: the hardest job in the world.
[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So here's how it impacted me right?
[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to bring all these ends together now.
[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I was used to being cared for by women.
[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: My mum, my girlfriends, my wife
[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just some degree they prioritized my needs
[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and I accepted that
[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and I thought some degree my needs should be prioritized
[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or I thought not necessarily I was special
[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: but I thought that was just the way it was.
[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: After having my first child
[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I suddenly realized how
[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm going to use this word selfish I actually was
[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't I had no idea how selfish I was.
[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I was selfish about sleep dad
[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I was selfish about my routine
[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I was selfish about going to work
[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I was selfish about you know
[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: being able to eat what I wanted when I wanted
[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: not having to change my plans at the drop of a hat
[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It does wake you up a bit doesn't it son?
[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I could not believe it
[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and even more than that
[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: so A here's me going shit
[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I am a selfish mofo like
[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to change any of this stuff right
[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like I'm used to this routine
[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and the way I am
[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: so that was the first realization
[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's a shock because I'm thinking
[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to be a dad I can't wait
[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and then I'm like holy moly
[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: like this is not what I signed up for
[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: like me sacrificing so much of my
[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know my routine and everything
[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: anyway, what routine it just gets blown to smithereens
[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it's gone it's gone everything's in pieces now
[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: right and then the second part of that is
[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I had got so used to people doing things for me
[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: now the the impetus was on taking care
[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: of the mother who's keeping the child alive
[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: yes
[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I I I almost blew my brain I'm thinking
[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: so now not only do I not matter
[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: in this situation right now
[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got one job and that is to
[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: provide care and make sure the mum's okay
[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: so that and nurturing
[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah can be the other component is an issue
[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: as nurture dad I struggle with that
[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I straight out was so hard for me
[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and I look I made mistakes
[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: it was such a real do some
[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that this might have been human
[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: yes no no but it was such a massive adjustment
[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I I just literally came face to face
[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: with the person who I thought I was
[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and was probably the first real time I had
[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: to I had that come to Jesus moment
[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: where I went I'm not the person
[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought I was yeah I thought I had
[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: together or at least I had a mission or
[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and then suddenly I realized that no I'm
[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: a selfish guy who doesn't really want
[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: to adjust too much in too quickly
[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm not used to looking after other
[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: people and wow that was hard
[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: but it took me a lot of time son it's
[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: like I'll draw a metaphor prior to
[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that realization dawning upon you
[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you had been looking at yourself in
[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a slightly frosted mirror
[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you know like when you have a shower
[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's it covers over
[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you finally got a towel
[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and you wiped it clean and you've gone
[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: oh my god is that really me
[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah but the worst thing about it dad
[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: is if you see it and then you go
[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: like kind of like do I don't really
[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: want this to be the case you then resist
[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: it because but I don't have a bloody
[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: choice I've got to do it but yeah
[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly I don't have a choice so then
[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's then now you're in a new game
[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you're in a whole new reality where
[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you got a crying kid you got a mother
[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: who's tired she's got mastitis of the
[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: nipples and and you got you know
[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and now and women get cranky
[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: because of the stress loading that's
[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: right yeah and you know they look
[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: there in the job to help them with
[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the child that's right and to say
[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: darling look I still love you I
[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: understand it's a lot of hard work
[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: it's real it's necessary
[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and every couple goes through it
[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: one way or another well I will
[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: tell you I'll tell you this dad
[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't start growing up
[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: until I had my first child
[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't I didn't even
[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: start I I thought I was
[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: doing a decent job I was not even
[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: starting you didn't have that on
[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: your own hmm and then obviously
[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: after the second child
[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew how to cut an umbilical
[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: cord this time without freaking out
[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: after the third child I'm like hey
[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I'm getting good at this
[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff you know and I deserve a badge
[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and but even then you know
[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I at least I knew what
[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: feelings were gonna come up and then I'd
[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: have to sacrifice some sleep and help
[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the mum out and you know and this
[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: was gonna happen I had no like and
[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: this goes back to what you said at the very beginning of the podcast
[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: please why don't you tell me more
[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: about it school yes because
[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I it was like I knew I was learning this for the
[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: first time I wasn't relevant to every child
[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: male or female I wasn't prepared
[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: there's no difference hmm yeah
[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: so I gotta say though
[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: as I went I did get
[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: better I spent more time
[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: with them as their kids I helped mum out
[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: more I tried to get
[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: home earlier from work but it took me
[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: years and years to
[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: become what I considered to be a
[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: decent father and I
[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I wish I could have
[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I wish I could learn that earlier
[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know life doesn't work
[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that way unfortunately right
[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: it's because they didn't prepare us
[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: hmm
[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: that being said there are some men out there
[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that and maybe it's when you have a very
[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of well rounded
[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and harmonious upbringing
[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: where you are
[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: ready and you do have support and maybe
[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that was part of it too for me dad I
[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have support not so much
[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: from you or mum or anything but
[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it was kind of like we're on our own
[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and we didn't have the community to
[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: different country to start off with exactly right
[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: different country different city
[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it's hard when you're separated from
[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: it's hard on your own son
[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't have to tell me that
[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it's incredibly hard
[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: which is one of the reasons
[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: when I had my beautiful daughter
[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: we're in the US at the time
[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: we shifted back so that we could be near
[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: family to make sure that they were
[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: in her life because I realized how hard
[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: it was for the mum you know when
[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: when the kids went around
[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: so also when the parents
[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: grandparents and what have you went around
[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: so look that's my experience
[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: it probably is a little bit revealing
[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but I don't think it's uncommon
[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just stating it because
[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it's true I'm not denying it anymore
[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you know
[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: well I think what you've said
[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: can be summarized
[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: we are self-assured beings
[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and because we're not prepared for
[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: what happens we have to
[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: make this choice and it's a forced choice
[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_02]: between our own selfishness
[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and our need
[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_02]: to look after
[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: what we have created
[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: which is
[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: our total responsibility
[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: totally yeah and you get
[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a whole new idea about
[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01]: what responsibility really is
[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: totally I appreciate you summarizing
[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_01]: like that because each
[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: time I became a father
[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I became more of a man
[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I learnt more about myself
[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and I was able to now
[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: give freely to other children that I meet
[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: through friends and acquaintances
[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and I care for kids
[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I know what my responsibility is
[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to you know to help guide them
[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and sacrifice a bit of time
[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and energy and what have you for others
[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and when you were going through that phase
[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you've established
[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: bonds with other young
[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: people like you who were having
[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: children because each party
[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: understood what the others were going through
[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: in their private lives
[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that's right
[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: look we've only just really touched on it
[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess but it's been nice sharing
[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: some of that with you and I probably haven't done that
[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so much previously
[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: so let's
[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: no you've never done it and I'm proud of you for sharing it
[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: thanks
[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: let's park it for now and we've got
[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: another very exciting
[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: segment coming up
[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: another episode of
[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: emails from Dad
[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: oh my god
[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: emails from Dad
[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: so I've really been enjoying this emails from Dad
[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: not because necessarily
[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the content is so great it's just because
[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that way I get to actually read your emails
[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: because they collect in my inbox
[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: are you actually reading some of them?
[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it makes me read them
[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: no seriously you do
[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and I've got to actually on the website
[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I've created a blog which I've called Matt Crap
[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: so this is going to be your spot
[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to add
[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Matt Crap for the
[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the masses
[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: if anybody's listening I write a lot
[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and most of it's unfinished
[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: so I just call it Matt Crap
[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm entitled to because I write the stuff
[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly
[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: some of it's
[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: well they say you can't polish a turd but I'll tell you
[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you do a pretty good job
[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know
[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of shit to it
[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: so speaking of which
[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I was looking back I had the whole
[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: stock of emails and I've saved over the years
[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: but then I saw one that came through a few days ago
[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and I flagged it because I thought this would be perfect
[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: for us to chat about
[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: on this coming podcast
[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was a poem that you
[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the background to it
[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't even spoken to you about it until this moment
[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I better explain it in a moment
[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: when you've
[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: so it's called Iearn
[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I read it and straight away
[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like I really like
[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: this I'm not sure exactly why
[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just the
[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: contradiction or the opposing sort of
[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: themes of violence plus
[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know it's got an uneasy feel to it so
[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I will let you describe it
[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to anyone who
[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: to any poor individual who's listening
[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: suffering all this stuff
[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I write a lot of things and they're usually
[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: inspirational
[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and they come from
[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: various very different perspectives
[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: now this one is
[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: a bit cruel it wasn't intended
[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to be it's just how it came
[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: so don't take it
[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that I'm a budding terrorist or
[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: anything like that it's just
[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_02]: an expression of
[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the subconscious
[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I yearn to be
[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: an assailant some
[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: instrument of violent
[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: change with a pocket
[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: full of weapons and a
[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: mind suitably
[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: deranged
[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll hide among the flowers
[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and leave no trace
[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: of scent so
[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: no one except
[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: their Poirot knows my
[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: design or my intent
[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I fucking
[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: love that so
[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Poirot eh?
[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah inspect
[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Poirot
[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: alright
[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Chief Inspector Poirot
[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Chief Inspector Poirot
[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Agatha Googly
[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah so
[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I love it tell me more
[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: where did it come from and
[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know son
[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: what tends to happen is
[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm an inspirational writer
[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: like in the old days when I mowed lawns
[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd be mowing the lawns and
[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: something would flood into my head and I think
[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: oh yeah
[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and I keep mowing the lawns and
[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: it would irritate me to the point where
[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I have to stop mowing the lawns
[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and write this whatever it was four lines
[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_02]: or ten lines down
[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02]: so I could get on with my daily chores
[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is
[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: the same sort of stuff
[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and anybody out there you can
[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: understand why I call it mad crap
[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I just that first
[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not suggesting
[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: or recommending
[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that we do anything violent
[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: or opposed to the laws of our country
[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just a
[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02]: god damn poem that came from somewhere
[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I yearned to be in a salient
[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: some instrument of violent change
[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: with a pocket full of weapons and a
[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: mind suit to bleed to range
[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that's so good
[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry about that son
[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to make a song or something
[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: you know it's going to be heavy though
[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: heavy metal or something
[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_01]: oh my god
[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I know it's weird
[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I do
[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: but I write a lot of weird stuff
[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_02]: as well as beautiful stuff
[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: well I hope there's people out there
[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01]: who do appreciate the sort of
[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_01]: well mad crap but also
[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the creative
[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: process of
[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: being able to express oneself
[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in a way that
[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: conjures up imagery and feelings
[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and emotions even if it isn't fully
[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: formed it's still
[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: something new
[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: we see the strange thing is
[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I was very creative
[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was young
[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and I didn't know until
[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I went to high school
[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: at age 13 that I
[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: was also a budding
[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: scientist and I know
[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that's usually a very strong
[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: contradiction but all my
[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_02]: working life has been about work
[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: it hasn't been about
[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the creative world
[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: so whatever creative
[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: stuff I've done painting
[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_02]: or poems or songs or whatever
[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I've done in my own time
[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: in my own way
[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's
[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: all taken a second place
[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: to
[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: being a provider
[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: or firstly for my family
[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and laterally for myself
[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and all this stuff just
[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess my subconscious
[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: is a sewage pond
[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and
[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: it bubbles up
[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01]: well you do
[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you definitely have some nuggets in there
[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: floating to the top
[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: let's not elaborate on what kind of
[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: don't go to the top
[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: well done that was emails from Dad
[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it's time to wrap it up
[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: The Meet in Him podcast
[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: well that was fun Dad
[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a good time
[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: it was
[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: a few laughs and some
[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: new stories and what have you
[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I've just been
[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: enjoying sort of hearing stuff
[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and even listening back to the other podcast
[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_01]: stories I've never heard before
[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming that's the same for you
[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: yes
[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you're telling me things about yourself
[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that I've never heard
[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and sometimes they bring tears to my eyes
[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah well look
[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_01]: you've said some lovely things over the course
[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: of the last few episodes
[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think for us it's a very
[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of heartfelt experience
[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm hoping that we're just
[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: encouraging more of that energy
[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: for anyone who may be listening as well
[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess in terms
[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of moving forward
[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we've got a couple more episodes in this
[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: first block of 12
[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you know
[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: episodes or the season 1
[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think I may have laid this out
[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit earlier on a previous podcast
[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: can't quite remember to be honest but
[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the next 12 will be devoted to
[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: topics specifically that affect
[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: men, fathers
[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a good idea son because
[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: we've talked about the way
[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02]: our lives have unfolded
[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's
[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: probably relevance to some
[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_02]: men but there are proper
[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: men's issues that
[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: now that we've
[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02]: hopefully got some credibility
[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: we should address
[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree and I'm really looking forward to it
[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where it's going to go
[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I know we've got some guests that are lining up
[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and
[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01]: we will announce more as we go
[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: but we've got for the next episode
[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: where we've landed in this
[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: timeline is obviously
[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01]: becoming fathers really major life
[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: change and a transition
[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: point and
[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01]: next one
[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: because this is kind of about me
[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: extracting your story what I would like to
[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: look at is what happened when
[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: things change when you and mom
[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: separated yes because
[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I was catapulted into
[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_02]: a series of
[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: new lives
[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and it had an impact on your children
[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and
[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: very complicated situation but
[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: lots of relationships
[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: involving children break up
[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: over 50% dad unfortunately
[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that's
[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: oh god that's high
[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: so why don't
[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: we just tell them how it was
[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: in our lives
[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah you know what and just
[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to sort of paint a bit of a rosy picture
[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: on that then maybe others could be
[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: paying the fact that we're doing this
[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast I don't think would have come
[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: about if we hadn't been through
[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: what we've been through yes we've
[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: we've both been through
[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of pain in our
[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of dimensions
[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and
[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: that needs expressing
[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah and sharing
[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah so I'm looking forward to that
[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that was a very tough period
[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: for you I know it was tough for me
[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and it certainly was something that
[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: has taken me a good couple
[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of decades to reconcile and
[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: really realize what
[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I needed to hold on to and what I didn't
[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and look
[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I love doing this with you and I think
[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: we're onto something here
[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and just stay around
[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: well I'm in the drop off zone son
[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_02]: so it could be tomorrow
[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: it could be in two or ten years time
[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02]: only the lord knows I don't
[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah we've all got a ticket
[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe
[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it's the grim reaper he's the one who knows
[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: oh does he
[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: well let tell the grim reaper we've got a couple
[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: we've got a couple more episodes
[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01]: before he's got his
[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I promise not to die before the end of the first year
[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_02]: no
[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: good alright dad take it easy
[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll speak to you next episode
[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you son