Ep14: Men's Role in Modern Society w. Tim Allen

[00:00:01] The Me and Him Podcast. Well, Dad, I'm really happy to introduce you to someone who's become a really good friend of mine, Tim. Hi, Tim. Hi, Tim. Hi. I've invited Tim along. Tim Allen is a gentleman who I came into contact through an amazing organization called Mentoring Men.

[00:00:27] And I was referred to them when I was going through a whole bunch of change when I decided to leave my job in Sydney. I ended up ending a relationship there as well, and I was moving up the coast to be near my daughter. And I knew that I wasn't feeling great. I wasn't feeling very stable at the time. And I knew coming to a new environment and I was going to start a new job, I needed some support. And it was suggested to me that there was an organization called Mentoring Men that could

[00:00:54] potentially help me in search for someone to provide a little bit of, I guess, an instant friend slash, you know, a bit of sane advice, what have you, a bit of support. And so I got an option to, I got the opportunity to meet Tim. And, you know, thanks, Tim, for, you know, being there. Like it's been wonderful getting to know you.

[00:01:19] And together we're now embarking on other adventures together in terms of looking into starting our own men's table and things like that. But Dad, I just wanted to sort of set that groundwork to say this is how Tim and I met. And we catch up most weeks. And so sometimes in between, face to face, text a bit around. And yeah, so welcome, Tim. I really wanted to have you on our podcast. You've got some really interesting perspectives. And you've obviously got a driver to do this sort of work as well.

[00:01:47] And I thought, Dad, it could add a lot of flavor and some real interest to what we're doing here with regard to me and him. So welcome. And Dad, I'll throw to you. Do you have a question for Tim? I know him. So. Well, it sounds exciting. Tim, is there a branch of what you do, which is called mentoring geriatrics? Can be anyone. I think when Jason was first connected with me, I think my age put him off a little bit.

[00:02:17] But the way it's sort of set up is, you know, life's a bit like a boxing match sometimes. And in between rounds, it's just having someone in your corner just to, you know, have a chat to and just refocus to get you back in the fight. That's sort of what the idea is. So, yeah, it's good. So it can be anyone of any age. Of course it is. And if you look at some of the spiritual pathways and particularly the Eastern religions, gurus,

[00:02:43] and I mean that term exactly as opposed to pejoratively, arise at any age in any context. You know, wise people, people who are healers, people who care for others. So age is just a number. Totally. And just on that point, and it was interesting because I had that association in my head that a mentor should be someone who's older, grayer, run and sold a business, you know, what have you.

[00:03:13] When they suggested, they said, oh, you've got a guy up there and he's, you know, he's a bit younger, blah, blah, blah. And they said, are you still interested to meet him? And I thought about it for a couple of days thinking, oh, you know, maybe you're doing the... And then I realized that, of course I am. Because A, someone is up there who's willing to, you know, play that role and B, someone in my corner, as you just mentioned. And B, I'm going to be real friends that way anyway.

[00:03:41] So, you know, I can't lose, right? And then, of course, I'm so glad I didn't let my preconceived notions throw me off taking action. And I just ran at it. And I'm really happy. So thank you, Tim. Just, you know, before we get into detail here, thank you for, you know, putting your hand up to volunteer your services to things like this. And, you know, thanks for becoming a good mate as well. Yeah. Well... Son, one comment. You've always had a mentor to cover your back.

[00:04:10] But being a typical son, just like I was when I was your age, you look elsewhere. Yeah, well, you know, you can't get... I know that you sit up on a mountain on the hill and, you know, has all the wisdom that I will ever need. But sometimes it does help to have a few different lines in the water, you know. Of course, of course. Look, I was the same at your age. I was just poking a little bit of gentle fun. Hey, just while we're on that topic, and this might help you, Dad.

[00:04:39] What was the driver for you, Tim, to do something like mentoring men? Or, you know, maybe you've done other stuff like this. I'm not sure. It sort of came about because when I was a bit younger and going through my own sort of issues, my dad was... Dad and I are very close. But dad was, you know, a way away. Like he was, you know, two or three hours drive away. So I just... There was no one really in my life who I could turn to, an older man or someone just who could sort of help me when I was, you know, late teens, early adulthood.

[00:05:09] You know, guide me through some issues in life and relationships. You know, I've got a strained relationship with my mother. It's just helping me through all that. So yeah, so when I got to a point in my life where I was a bit more settled and, you know, things were... Things are looking good. I thought, you know, maybe I can look for a charity to be able to provide that for someone else. Initially, I thought I wanted to help out younger men or, you know, teenagers. But... He got his own geriatric, Dad.

[00:05:36] All the charities I spoke to really were about helping men. And when you start looking at the issues with male loneliness and it happens later in life, I thought, yeah, this is a good opportunity to, you know, to give back and help someone. So yeah, I talked to you, Jason. And then there's another guy I talked to, which is online. He's up in Cairns. And yeah, it's been a good 12 months I've been doing that. So it's good. Brilliant. And do you have anyone that mentors you?

[00:06:03] I mean, outside of the sort of indirect benefit of having an older guy as a mentee, maybe having some more life experience, but, you know, do you actually have that... I've got to close it on now. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Dad's covering his mouth. Yeah, yeah. I guess I draw advice off different men. There are all... It just varies. Depends what part of my life. So, you know, it might be someone in professional sphere. I get questions that way or dad personal life.

[00:06:29] But sort of, I am quite high on self-assurance too. So I don't like to be told. So the same thing, you know? So it's like normally I just go to, you know, have a chat about what I'm already thinking and confirm my thoughts. Nice. I see you're laughing there, Matt, because it's so true, isn't it? With sons and fathers. Absolutely. All right. So we've got three generations on this podcast today.

[00:06:57] So, you know, we've got Dad is a boomer. I'm an ex-er. And we've got Tim who's carrying the millennial flag, I believe. Would that be fair? Yes? Okay. Brilliant. So we're going to have an awesome conversation. And what we're going... What we've decided to speak around is men's role in the modern world and modern society and some of the challenges, you know, and some of them may be even pointing towards some of the solutions potentially that we have noticed.

[00:07:25] So are we all strapped in and ready to deep dive? Yep. Yep. Yep. I'm in business class. Let's go. You're in business class, strapped in? All right. You've probably got a glass of champers in your hand then and a hot towelette. Of course. Ladies and gentlemen, Me and Him podcast, flight number 33, is about to take off. Please pass in your seatbelts. See you in a second. The Me and Him podcast. I've got a quick question to help me understand the good work that you do.

[00:07:55] Are you able, preserving the confidentiality of the individual, to give us a specific example? Yeah. Yeah, I can. So I guess to just zoom out a little bit on what mentoring actually is, I'm no sage and I don't have all the answers for people. I can't actually give them the answers on how to solve their problems. And that's something that I had to learn through some of the training courses they gave when we came into this Mentoring Men charity.

[00:08:24] I am an engineer, so I'm very result orientated. So when people come to me with a problem, I'm like, all right, how are we going to fix it? But with emotional problems and people's lives, it's not really like that. So really, one of the people I talked to, he came to me, he just came out of some attempts on his life and he really had a low value of himself. So just meeting with that person and letting them talk through their issues and how they're feeling.

[00:08:54] I'm not trying to answer or resolve those feelings, but then trying to slowly over weeks and months build that person's self-worth up and sort of try and find the little positives in what they're saying and how they're, you know, often these people who are suffering don't see that they are positive impacts in other people's lives. And really, that's sort of what I was trying to focus on. You know, how are you, you know, people need you around, you know, you make someone's life better and just trying to find that.

[00:09:24] And if, you know, there was weeks where they struggled that, I would make a point to say, you know, I've enjoyed talking to you. I look forward to the next one. And just really trying to, you know, over time build up that person's self-worth. And it's, that's been effective. It's helped both people I talk to. So, yeah, I think that's the approach. Not trying to fix things, trying to build people's self-worth up and trying to get them to find the answers to their problems themselves through coaching, through sort of leading

[00:09:53] questions and not, yeah, not coming in trying to have the answers because that's sort of arrogant really. And it sort of puts barriers up, you know, people aren't willing to share if you're just trying to solve their problems and say it's an obvious fix straight away. So there's a good video to watch actually. I'll send it around. It's called, it's not about the nail. It's about a man talking to his partner and she's got a nail sticking out of her forehead and she's talking about, you know, has she got a pain in her head and he just keeps talking about the nail and she gets very frustrated.

[00:10:20] By the end, he just sits there and listens to her issues and acknowledges her feelings and validates her. And really, that's what it's about. So we just want to pull that nail out. I know that's long-winded, but I hope that sort of answers your question. Very much. Yes. Yeah. Awesome. So, well, obviously you've encountered, you know, people in that sort of position before I have, dad has, who, men who have been struggling, men who have been depressed, men who feel

[00:10:48] lonely, men who really don't know how to tackle these emotions. And obviously this issue is huge, right? There are a lot of organizations springing up to address it. But I think the cavity runs so deep or the dysfunction runs so deep that it's going to take years, if not decades, to see this resolved. So I guess what I wanted to start exploring, you know, back on topic on men's role in modern society.

[00:11:17] Where do you think we're at right now, Tim? Where do you think men are at right now? Lots is going on. But the more we seem to be providing solutions, the more we seem to be uncovering in terms of some of the deep fissures in the male psyche. Well, I guess there's the role of, you know, societal roles and norms are in flux and changing and we're still going through that process.

[00:11:42] So there's at the minute, I think, you know, you've got the polarization of society generally. So on one end, you've got men who are trying to be, you know, very emotional and involved. And then you've got the other end of the spectrum of people pushing back who are, you know, hyper you know, prominent examples of people who are run the middle ground and who, you know, can really be an integrated person who, you know, I think that's the challenge.

[00:12:10] But I think also a big part of that is just social media is just about, you know, amplifying extremes and stuff. That's what gets attention. So I think the examples we see are extremes, but the reality is, you know, if you stop thinking globally and start looking locally around and building connections, you will find, I think, most men turning up well and, you know, getting better every day. Hmm. And I guess I've read books in this subject over time, including Steve Biddulth's Manhood

[00:12:38] and a bunch of others and been watching a lot of the reels more recently. And I did want to kind of throw Jordan Peters into this conversation as well at some point, because, you know, when you mentioned, you know, that what is men's role in society and social media, there's actually, there's a lot of influences coming through, right? And you're saying polarize, you've got the Andrew Tate, you know, hyper masculine, and then you've got women's talking about what, you know, women really want and trying to teach men what they want. And it's like, well, where do I sit on this line?

[00:13:08] It is quite confusing. But I guess just to hark back to some of the literature I've read, and I guess I believe, and I also read another book called No More Mr. Nice Guy, which sort of undergirded this idea as well, that, you know, the women's live movement quite rightly changed the game with regards to women's involvement in the workforce, their involvement in senior positions, you know, and the equality of the sexes, et cetera.

[00:13:34] But what was never considered in that aspect was the repositioning of males, men's role, you know, to be, I think, you know, there's an expectation that, okay, you've got to be a high performing, you know, moneymaker, but also be soft and emotional and really understand and be at home with the kids. And it's like, you know, just like women can't do everything, guys can't do it all either. So we're left in this state of, okay, everything's changed. So where do we sit?

[00:14:03] Am I sort of talking the same language as you? Yeah. Yeah. Can I say something here, Tim? I apologize for the interruption. Sonia, you said in your long list, something stuck out to me, which was what women really want. I can tell you in a few words what women really want from men. All right, here we go. 80-year-old ex-boomers going to drop the truth bombs. They want a man who listens.

[00:14:33] Mm-hmm. It's as simple as that. Yep. Yeah, I think you're right there. But also, I guess the challenge, people have forgotten, you know, relationships and with anyone, intimate partner or friends, or they're two-way streets too. So it's not, you know, about giving all of yourself and fully sacrificing who you are. But then conversely, it's not the other way, expecting your partner to, you know, or the other person in your relationship to fully give and sacrifice themselves.

[00:15:00] And I think that's probably where the disconnect with the hyper-masculine example, you take, take, take, and then when you're this really emotional person, you'll give, give, give, and neither work, right? So it's, yeah, listening, communicating how you feel, and, you know, respectfully, and navigating that. Because that's, you know. Agree. Yeah, and I guess where a lot of this shows up, you know, we're not going to solve anything, obviously, through this conversation, but we can sort of highlight a few key points.

[00:15:27] And potentially, I'd like to finish with a couple of thoughts in terms of a way forward. But potentially, where these issues really show up, and I know they've shown up in my life, is when we have those, you know, relationships, where we have those intimate relationships, where we get vulnerable, and we're under pressure, and we're under stress. And, you know, there's an expression, when you squeeze an orange, what's inside comes out. So once everything's hunky-dory, and, you know, we've cruising along,

[00:15:56] and then we have kids, and then someone gets sick, and then we lose a job. And suddenly, a whole bunch of emotion can spill out, which can really point to where you're at in terms of your own personal evolution as a man. Would you agree with that, Tim? Yeah, definitely. And obviously, the pressure cooker of having a young family is a big one, you know. But the things that get said in the middle of the night when everyone's sleep-deprived are best left in the middle of the night, you know.

[00:16:24] So I think, you know, definitely, again, it comes back to communication, because when the pressure's on, when people are sick, especially you mentioned that, or when you're busy at work, and you've still got to come home and look after screaming children, you can say things to your partner that are not nice, but you need to be following that up when the situation's come down with, you know, communication, talking it through, acknowledging you've fucked up. Yeah, those things. I know that's how me and my partner operate. We talk a lot.

[00:16:53] And we find, actually, when we talk to friends of ours, and we just feel like a lot of people don't talk to each other, and that's a big part of the problem. No one sits down and just has a conversation about how things are going, or how they're feeling, or plans for the future, or things, you know. Just, I just feel like everyone, not everyone, that's wrong to say, but like a lot of people we talk to who have issues in their relationship aren't doing that. And Tim, I would like to add something to that.

[00:17:19] You're absolutely correct, but a lot of people talk at each other rather than to each other. And there's where the disconnect comes from right at the beginning. Yep. Just on that topic, Dad, and certainly I've learned this lesson, or I'm learning this lesson through relationships I've had. One of the exercises we did at one point through mediation was active listening,

[00:17:44] and it was very interesting for someone to be given the floor, the talking stick, and let someone know exactly what's going on and why they're upset, etc., and have to A, listen to it all, and then B, repeat it back as best you can, you know, just summarizing it or in your own words, and then saying, did I hear that? Is that correct? Am I explaining it correctly? Oh, no, you missed a bit. Okay, well, and doing it again until you've actually proven by repeating it

[00:18:13] that you've really understood it, and the impact that has on the other person is seismic from what I've seen. To not just say, yeah, I hear you, but what I heard is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Is that right? Oh, no, it wasn't quite like that. It's like this. That's so powerful. That means that by saying that you're engaging with the other person. It does take some emotional intelligence, though, doesn't it? Yeah. Well, to not rise, to listen, to understand, instead of to listen, to react.

[00:18:42] And often, you know, like when things are heated, people are hearing the words, but they're already trying to find an opening to jump in with their response. So it all swings back to what Matt said at the start, and it's like listening. People are looking for people who can listen. So, yeah, communication is important. Yeah, active listening. So I'm guilty as charged.

[00:19:05] I spent 20 plus, probably 30 plus years probably being defensive in what I was hearing, filtering it through some belief system I was running, and then getting it sparking off a justification or story or a bit of righteousness. It didn't work. And it's a smaller part of me that I've now reconciled with to a large degree. I guess it still can rear its head up because, you know, this thing gets inbuilt.

[00:19:32] But in terms of being able to actually, to be able to not react, you actually have to have increased self-awareness, don't you? How do you do that, Tim? How do you get to a place where you can hear it and respond but not react? What sort of work has to be done? Well, you can't have those conversations when you're emotional. So if you're angry or annoyed about something, you need to just communicate that you need to, you know, remove yourself from the situation or come back to it later

[00:20:03] and then come back when you're clear-headed because you cannot hear someone's perspective. If they're annoyed at you and trying to communicate that and you're annoyed at them, you're not going to hear it because all you hear is criticism. And I think I saw it actually happen. I won't mention who it was, but I saw it happening in a relationship the other day. So there's four things they say if they turn up in a relationship. It's, you know, spells doom. It's criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. And if those things are present, yeah, you need to, there's positive behaviors you can use to turn them around.

[00:20:32] But yeah, if you're emotional and angry, you, you know, you take anything as criticism. That leads to contempt and defensiveness. You mentioned that, Jason, you were being defensive. And then stonewalling is the last thing where someone just shuts down, right? So, yeah. So it's, yeah, disconnecting when you're emotional and, you know, when things are heightened and coming back with clear head in the situation, you know, and say the kids have stopped screaming or, you know, and just, you know, one, apologize for losing your temper or saying things

[00:21:02] and then opening the door to have a conversation. Correct. Hey, Dad, just because we're talking through stuff that I don't think really was talked in any large way when I was a young man, I was ignorant to either that conversation or maybe it was happening in more the academia circles. I'm interested in your, you know, in your upbringing, you know, back when you were a young man growing up, that level, you know, what you just talked about, defensiveness, relationships, being able to actively listen,

[00:21:30] what have you, how have you seen it evolve from where you were young to through the generations? Because we're having a different conversation now, aren't we? Yes, we are. I was a snag before the term was invented in the 70s, which was a sensitive new age guy. That's right. Because I was sensitive from birth as an only child in a family where my father couldn't control his temper.

[00:21:53] And I, from my little refuge, I started to listen to the sounds of happiness or violence between the two. And that shaped my whole picture of manhood and femininity. Because my mother was essentially a victim. And I was, by proxy, a remote victim, you know, hiding somewhere.

[00:22:20] And I've come up with a very, through life, with a determination to respect women, because I've seen them disrespected, especially when I was young. And I'm a champion of anything which promotes a quality relationship between men and women. And both parties are guilty because these sorts of things aren't taught in school. I mean, school is meant to prepare you for life. Hmm. There should be a dimension.

[00:22:50] I'm against all this LGBTI stuff being taught to kids who are pre-puberty, because it's insanely stupid. But there's a time when the hormones are kicking in and the awareness of the other sex all of a sudden becomes important, where you need to know what the future consequences may be and how to possibly anticipate them. It's a complex subject. Yeah.

[00:23:18] But why the hell is it something as fundamental as that addressed in schools? I'm sure you've got a viewpoint on that, Tim, in terms of grounding men early on in these things. Or grounding both sexes. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'm not sure at the minute how I feel about the state teaching my children anything other than arithmetic and reading.

[00:23:40] But, you know, so, yeah, I'm not sure how I sit on all these extra programs in schools. One thing they should add to schools is financial literacy, which is shocking across the population. Fair enough. And that causes a lot of problems in relationships. Oh, yes. There's the squeezing part. There's the pressure being applied. Funny you should mention that. Do you want to go into that? No.

[00:24:11] I wholeheartedly agree with you. There's a story there somewhere, Tim. But in saying that and sort of tempering my opinion there, not everyone has positive role models in the home. So, you know, the gap, I guess, could be covered through community groups coming in and, you know, they role play, you know, positive interactions between people or, you know, how to diffuse situations or how to, you know, work through problems healthfully.

[00:24:38] Because, yeah, if you've only ever seen violence or, you know, yelling and screaming, how do you ever work out how to do it any other way? Can I just, we're touching on a topic now. You know, obviously this podcast theme is around men's role in modern society. So we're approaching from a bunch of different ways. We're setting a little bit of a foundation, I guess, for further conversations to come. But one theme that seems to crop up, we've just been exploring relationships and communication.

[00:25:06] But another theme is around that breakdown of community as well. And I was just listening to a Russell Brand interview, actually on Diary of the CEO. And he was talking about basically we're in a construct with materialism and individualism reign supreme, you know, where we are focused on ourselves and what we get and what we can measure. And that's what success is, et cetera, et cetera. And to some degree, we're, you know, are isolating.

[00:25:33] And I can only equate that drive to I want to be successful. I've got to do it on my own. And I've got to be my own man, self-made and all about me rather than all about the community and, you know, the building up something greater than me, I guess. And would you say that's part of the issues that we're experiencing too, is we're kind of cut off from those natural balancing elements of community that we once had? Tim?

[00:26:02] Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, it's only been 200 years since we've shifted from agrarian family-based, you know, clans basically to living in these massive urban areas where, you know, you're only really close to your nuclear family. And even then, most people aren't close to them when they leave the home because of whatever reasons. So, yeah, there's a big part of that. And I hear it in conversations with friends, you know, that community thing.

[00:26:28] Everyone complains at a national level and international level about all these issues, but no one's turning around and saying, hey, I'll put my hand up and volunteer locally or connect with some people in my local community. I think- Isn't that interesting? We're worried about the big picture and not going down and introducing ourselves as a neighbor who we haven't seen for a couple of days and seeing if they're okay or what have you. Yeah, I think the shift from that farming society to urban is our brains can't handle that whole, the way the, you know, social networks work.

[00:26:57] I think humans can only maintain like 250 relationships or something. So, oh, maybe it was 150. And then once it's bigger than that, the groups tended to break up. So now we're in these 5 million people cities and sort of feeling alone and really, yeah, forgetting about the local area and just focusing too much on the global. I think that's sort of part of this loss of community. Just on that, just to personalize that, Dad, you're going through a bit of a life change

[00:27:24] at the moment at 80, having to move places. And I know that your neighborhood and your community is really, really important to you. That must be challenging. And I would be interested in your take on that whole community piece, especially being a male, in your case, you know, an elder male. How does that impact you? The honest answer is it's frightening. But I've learned to address the fear and get on with the practicality.

[00:27:52] I mean, I've lived here for 30 years. This has been my home. I've molded it to meet my needs. I've grown in it. I've shared it with a partner, et cetera. And even to say goodbye to a material thing like a house is emotionally wrenching. But with that being said, you've formulated great relationships with your neighbors.

[00:28:20] You know, I've seen them pop over for, have a whiskey with you. And, you know, when I've been there and then someone else will pop sloppy in the street. And how important is that? I mean, that to me seems like part of what you live for is to make those connections. This may sound trivial, but it's absolutely real. If I move too far away from my local shopping center where I've known the chemist for, you

[00:28:46] know, 28 years and I know the people who run the post office and so forth, I'll feel as if something has been cut out. Now, logically on the surface, it's trivial because these facilities are available in the next neighborhood or whatever. Sure. But they've, in a funny way, come to be my friends. Yeah. Hmm. And that's obviously part of the, this is where we used to be, right?

[00:29:16] We were in these communities and we, to some degree, we were almost bound by those communities and we didn't really venture out. And then the last 50s, 80 years, you know, my sister lives in Paris now. My brother's in Melbourne. I'm here. You know, you must be the same, Tim. Friends move around. Everything's changing all the time. Like I haven't had a good, I think my first time in my 50s, I have my own GP who I get to know who knows me. First time. So, so I'm interested in maybe, is this a generational thing?

[00:29:46] Do you think, Tim, this, this change from, you talk about agrarian to, you know, more industrialization. This is also in the, just the last couple of generations, we've still just broken apart even more. Yep. We don't have time at the moment because I want to address the nuclear family, which Tim brought up and we're running out of time. Dad, this is our podcast. The only piece where you're going to say how much time we got is us. So if you want to share a story, share it now. This concept started in the 60s.

[00:30:16] What happened was the industries which supplied the basic needs like, you know, washing machines and appliances and toasters and everything else, found that their markets were saturated because people were still living multi-generationally in the same home. So there was a very strong, deliberate marketing drive to encourage the young people to move away

[00:30:45] from home because then each one of them would need a washing machine, a toaster, blah, blah, blah. And this was the beginning of the original nuclear family. And it was driven by capitalism. In the same way, I know that they, I read something some time ago where they, the invention of pink for girls' toys was brought up by Mattel as a way of selling double the amount

[00:31:12] of product because otherwise the toys were kind of generic for up until, I think it was the 50s. And then they split them into blue and red and then had boys' section, girls' section, what have you, or blue and pink. So yes, consumerism is part of that. But taking it from your perspective, Tim, you know, how do you view community as a millennial? I know you've travelled a lot. And now you're really focused in a location building community with your beautiful family and young girls.

[00:31:43] How do you, what's your take on it? Well, first, I wanted to say, I don't think what you were saying about moving away and feeling like something had been removed, Matt, was trivial. I think that is the feeling that I want to get to here. I've moved to here, I love it here in Port Macquarie and I don't really want to leave again. And I talked to my dad and he thinks that, you know, someone moving somewhere in their 30s and never wanting to leave that place again. Sure, I'll probably move house, but I still want to stay in Port Macquarie.

[00:32:12] He just thinks, yeah, oh, that's so strange. But I just, yeah, I just, I want to put roots down. I want this to be the place where, you know, raise kids and then you've got an emotional connection to the place and then the kids might go away for whatever. But there's always a home base to come back to a place, you know, because I have no connection to the places I grew up. I went to five primary schools and one high school. Like I just moved around so much and I will never go back to the place I went to high school in. I just know connections to those areas and it just seems transient.

[00:32:41] So, I think to me, building community and, you know, making a difference to other people's lives while you're feeling good. But then the times through your life when you're down, you've built that community. You've got that network to support you. So, you're investing into something that may come and support you. Yeah. And I'm not doing it to self-serving way. I just know that that's an outcome of it. And, you know, it's just something that keeps you grounded and fulfilled in life. So, I think community is probably the most important thing to me.

[00:33:09] I think everything else is just part of building that community. I agree. I agree with you wholeheartedly because I did mention going down to the chemist and the post office and so forth, but I get to know their lives and they get to know my life. And I ask questions about how the kids are going, you know, with regard to the chemist, the boys have completed university. They're running their own businesses.

[00:33:34] With regard to the post office, I saw the ladies, two boys, when they were toddlers and they're now 14 and you become engaged with your community and it's real and it's not synthetic like social media. You're talking to real people and you're getting real responses. If we can then just swing this back around to sort of men's role in modern society, how, and I'm interested in both of your thoughts on this, how do you feel like where we are,

[00:34:03] the role that community is playing? Because I'm hearing you, Tim, building community because you know that that's what you know when you build a, put those roots down, your family, you know, your family's going to come up, you know, they're going to start thriving. They're going to have that central base to come back to. Dad has done built community and look, you're going strong at 80 dad power to you, despite your proclivities towards the richness of life, shall we put it. But, you know, and one of the predictors of longevity is a sense of connection and belonging

[00:34:33] and relationships, right? One of the highest prediction over not smoking, eating healthy and getting exercise. It's your relationships and your community. So there's something there to bring this into the men's experience. How do those two things interface? If I'm a guy who's depressed, I feel ostracized. I feel like no one's in my corner. I've had some tough times. How do I, how do I utilize that information to build myself back up with regards to the

[00:35:02] whole community conversation? Okay. Well, as you did, you reach out. There's plenty, there is, there are plenty of men's groups out there and places to go. You know, the men's shed's been around for a while. I saw them doing a barbecue at Bunning just today actually. So they're around. But there's plenty of other things. If you are feeling down and lonely and disconnected, think local and find a group to connect with because there are people out there who want to, you know, connect with you and learn who

[00:35:31] you are and are interested in you. So that's the first thing. Then, you know, the other side of that, if you aren't down and out, but you're feeling good and you've got the time to give, then, you know, start a movement or join those groups or get involved. Um, because I think, and it's, you know, something I've thought about the role of men, you know, hasn't changed really. We're still, you know, sons and partners and fathers and brothers and all those things. And those things haven't changed and won't change.

[00:36:00] So it's really, it is about refocusing your life on, you know, others, building community, how you enrich the lives of others, how you leave the place better than you found it. And that is the role of men and women. I love that. But dad, do you want to, do you want to build on that? Well, something which came to me quite recently was always talk with a smile in your voice. Yeah. And the difference, whether you're talking to a male or a female is enormous because they relax.

[00:36:31] And you're talking about ways to build community. Like this is the interface here. Yes. It's how you do it. And talking to other people. Yeah. Yeah. And I was going to ask you about that actually, because I saw, I was thinking exactly the same thing as you, dad. Is that, you know, okay, so I'm new to an area. I'm a bit shy. I've, you know, I've just got divorced. I'm struggling with a few things. I'm kind of mind's full of stuff. How do I make that first step out there?

[00:36:58] Because we know once we do, there are a lot of people who are very open and supportive and ready to help. But often we don't feel, we don't feel courageous enough maybe being hurt before. Well, maybe the best way is to use social media for what it's actually for, to make a connection online, then take it offline and meet in real life and build a relationship. So, because, yeah. Because it is hard to find the groups, but just walking the streets, you know.

[00:37:25] So, use the internet for what it's there for and social media. And local again. Yeah, I think local is the key. I think, you know, connecting with people over chat or internet groups is okay if there's nothing else or if you have a pre-existing relationship. But meeting in person is, you know, and having all those experiences with people. So, there's a strategy there, right? Like you're saying, okay, I'm a bit cut off, a bit ostracized, a bit down at the moment outside of, you know, volunteering and doing things which might be a bit beyond,

[00:37:55] me right now as a male who's, you know, a bit disconnected. But if I go online and I find a local group and I sort of say, hey guys, I'm so-and-so, you know, just here to meet some people and someone starts to chat with me and I say, let's catch up for a coffee at some point. It's a couple of little steps forward. It's like throwing that, what they used to do when they build bridges, they used to fire an arrow with a string attached to it to the other side and then to bring that string

[00:38:23] across to put a bit of a thicker rope and then the rope would turn into a puller chain across and eventually you had this strong cable that was holding the first part of the bridge. I think that's really good advice, mate. Yep. Just local and potentially just a small step. Yep. But all these small steps add up. Hmm. And they may seem very tiny at the time, but if you just keep making them, then all of a

[00:38:50] sudden it doesn't end up being a stairway to heaven. That's just a dream. But it does- A bridge out of the darkness, maybe. Yeah. It takes you to a position where you can look back on yourself and then you can start to learn lessons from how you were and what you are now. Yeah.

[00:39:15] And all of a sudden, when you're able to do that, you can hear the things that people- the kind advice that people gave you and you think, oh my God, I really missed the point, did I? Well, it's time to implement that. What's that expression you're like, Dad? You know, it's only when you're ready to hear the answer. Was it? Yeah. It's only when you're ready to ask the question, you can hear the answer. Yeah, the answer. Yeah.

[00:39:45] That's right. That's right. And I think there's a lot of people who are there, right, who are starting to ask the question and I guess we've covered a few different areas. Another one I wanted to touch on while I've got Tim here and Tim, we'd love to have you back to explore some of this further if you're cool because there's so much to talk about. But you're in the mentoring men, so you're in the male-to-male relationship sort of business

[00:40:11] and obviously we've talked a little bit about your motivation, but what do you see are some of the challenges for men communicating what's really going on to other men? Because there's certainly this, you know, we've got a bit of an ego. We've got a bit of like, I've got to be strong. You know, I don't want to, you know, show my soft underbelly here. You know, I've got to hype up my life position and my happiness. But a lot of times it's a facade, right? And I've done it. We've all done it at some point. We've all done it.

[00:40:41] Yeah. Just curious to get your take on that because this is the kind of the business you're in, well, not the business you're in, but certainly an area you're interested in. Well, there's definitely a perception out there probably among most men that no one really cares about men's problems so much, you know, man up, man up, man up. You know, that gets said a lot when, you know, to people when they express how they're feeling. So I think that's probably part of it. General attitude towards it. And often it's hard.

[00:41:08] You know, you think about the, when you were younger, you know, catching up with your friends at the pub or whatever. It's all banter and jokes and there's never really an opportunity to sit down and talk about anything serious going on in your life. So you never learn how to. And then that carries forward, I guess, into your middle years where you're busy with family or work and you see your friends less and then loneliness creeps up and you've never actually learned how to stop and express what's going on inside two other men. Hmm.

[00:41:37] I'm interested in how you phrase that because my opinion is there is always an opportunity between men who are having their banter in a pub or whatever to reveal more, but they choose not to because of their perception of what constitutes manhood. Yeah, I would say that's right. I think the way to break that down, if you're in those groups, is to throw it out there and offer it.

[00:42:07] Just ask the question, check in with your friends even outside of the group. One group of friends I've got, we're very good at regularly when things go down in someone's life, you know, just throw it out there that, you know, does anyone want to, you know, want to chat about anything? And some people sometimes raise stuff. So we're getting good at, we're better at that, more conscious of it. But I don't think everyone is. And I think a lot of times, you know, this probably happens for a lot of people, men or women, don't actually know what's bothering you or what's off.

[00:42:37] You haven't sat down to think about it and reflect on what are the things I'm doing that are making me unhappy or what are the things I'm doing that make me happy and bring me joy. I think that's probably part of it as well. Tim, you've said something before, something about processing. Some people work out what's going on with them by process. Can you get that expression right for me? Yeah. So I do a bit with this strengths. So there's a company called Gallup who have a strengths framework and there's two strengths

[00:43:05] in there that are opposite to each other about how people process their thoughts. There's one called communication. So some people process their thoughts by talking and speaking and other people do it intellectually. They sit there and think about it. So yeah, there's people out there who need to talk through their emotions and feelings to clear their thoughts. And there's other people who, you know, it's all done in their head. So yeah, I think by not men that have that, and there's, you know, probably half the population have one and half have the other.

[00:43:34] And by men not being able to sit there and talk about their issues and talk it out, they never actually resolve those thoughts and crystallize what actually is going on and how to move forward. That I don't want to necessarily bring the tone of this conversation to a darker place, but it would be remiss of me because it's been in the back of my mind as we've spent the last few minutes talking about trouble men have communicating their emotions, what's going on, the breakdown of the community, some of the struggles that men have, and we've all had them.

[00:44:02] But the topic of male suicide, and I know you've had friends, you've lost friends, as have I, to that. And, you know, I guess just while I'm talking to you about that, how do you feel that conversation we're just having around processing and listening, men talking to men, you know, would that have played a role in maybe assisting, stopping some of these guys reaching that ultimate decision, or was it more complex than that? Depends upon the situation, son.

[00:44:31] I learned many, many years ago that if someone, and we'll say a friend, because I've had dear friends commit suicide, is talking about committing suicide, the last thing you do is try and talk them out of it. Interesting. I found it's much easier to say, okay, fair enough, you decide to do it. How are you going to do it? And all of a sudden they have someone who's listening as opposed to telling them, oh, life's

[00:45:00] worth living, don't throw your life away. Okay. And I've had incredibly interesting conversations, and it stopped a couple of people doing it. One very close to you, Ben, I won't mention this. Sure. Because it's very personal, but you and I can talk about it separately. And remember what we said before, listening. Yes. Everybody is saying, no, don't waste your life. It's a terrible thing to do. Nobody is saying-

[00:45:30] Yeah, look what you've got going for you. Be grateful. Yeah. And they don't want to hear that. And then all of a sudden someone says, and it's not morbid. Let's get that out of the way straight away. Well, fine. How are you going to do it? They go, well, and all of a sudden you engage in a conversation. And further down the track, you can gently bring in the other dissuaders.

[00:45:58] Tim, I know this is a hot-button topic for you and something potentially I want to explore further around as a conversation. But in terms of your take on what leads to men reaching that point, and obviously complex issue, but still a major, major issue in society right now, yes? Well, yeah, it is. Men have always taken their lives, from what I see from the statistics, a lot more than women.

[00:46:28] I think it's like seven. Every day in Australia, there's nine people and seven of them are men. And I think the worst age group is the middle ages. So yeah, it's a complex issue. It's very tragic. And it's something that part of this mentoring is to bring people back and help them see the positive impacts they bring in other people's lives. But the thing they do say in the training for these mentoring roles is if you have concerns

[00:46:57] or you think that someone is at that point, you need to ask the question directly. You can't say you're not going to do something silly. You need to say things like, are you thinking about killing yourself? You will not put the idea in someone's head. They have already had the idea and you need to address it, as Matt was saying front on. I don't know that they recommend so much talking through the methodology, but it's listening of how that's going to happen. But it's acknowledging the issues and not diminishing the feelings.

[00:47:26] And I think that's what you were getting at there. You don't diminish it by saying, oh, you're throwing it all away. You know, look at all the things you've got to be grateful for. That doesn't make someone who is in so much pain that death is the better out feel any better. You know, that's really where they're at. It's not that you're afraid. It's not that you're not afraid of dying. It's that the dying seems better than continuing to live in pain. And so it's working through that and help acknowledging someone's experience. Yes.

[00:47:55] And I just want to add a little bit to that. The moment you acknowledge their experience, the tension inside them, and I've seen it, just drops. A, it's a surprise because everyone else has been saying something completely different. And B, I use that as a starting point. And as the conversation progresses, we can then move into the causal elements.

[00:48:22] And because they relax emotionally, they will tell you and you can work through them. And look, I don't want to sort of delve too deep into this, but I think we've kind of reached the point of this is one of the reasons, you know, that these conversations are happening because this is an issue and men don't talk enough. So we're here's three guys from three different generations.

[00:48:48] You know, obviously two of us related with a wonderful new friend for you, Dad, Tim, talking about what's going on for us, what we think's going on, you know, around our local communities and some of the issues and drivers of this tragic circumstance. Part of it's community. Part of it's not enough. You know, there hasn't been opportunity for men to speak openly.

[00:49:11] Part of it's been, you know, I guess to some degree also a lack of maybe work done on oneself, emotional management as well. Like there is an aspect that we all should take some responsibility for our emotional intelligence and not repeat the same mistake over and over and over again as I've seen people do. And I've been guilty of myself. So as we're wrapping up, as we're rounding out this conversation,

[00:49:37] what can men do to, I guess, if the topic is male's role in the modern society, to better integrate themselves, to improve their mental health outcomes, and to start to really move on more of a, I guess it sounds trite, but more of a pathway to thrive rather than just survive? What would be the tips from the start with you, Tim?

[00:50:05] So stop breeding nonsense on social media and get out into the real world and connect with real people. And I'm sure Matt will say something similar. Absolutely. I find, you know, if I, you know, I love watching YouTube, but once you watch a video on one thing, your whole feed fills up with it. So if you've watched something that's quite pessimistic, you end up just seeing all this, you know, gender baiting and race baiting and, you know, all this stuff, these videos of outrage.

[00:50:34] And when that happens, one, you just need to wipe your search history so the algorithm resets and also maybe just stop watching it for a while because I've found in the past, you know, it really does affect how you show up in the world, how you feel. In effect, it's more or less brainwashing you, but you're just doing it to yourself unbeknownst. Yeah, yeah. You're feeling your mind full of that theme. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And if you go and just talk to people in the real world, real people,

[00:51:02] you'll see, you know, most people, you know, they just want the same things you do. So it is about real connection and, you know, yeah, being out in the world. I mean, going for a walk on the beach and having the chat in the mornings, Jason, it's fantastic. Like, you know, we do that every Wednesday now and that just connecting in real life, but also in, you know, nature, just looking at the beautiful place we live and just, yeah, feeling grounded. And we wouldn't get the same if we were doing it over Zoom. So, yeah.

[00:51:31] Yeah, and it could be, you know, a coffee, catching up with a mate in Ligon Street, you know, in Melbourne or what have you and doing that on a regular Sunday thing and what have you. So it doesn't matter really where you're at. It's about that face-to-face connection. And also, I guess, the rhythm of that as well. Is that what you're getting at? That irregularity? Yeah. I guess some people like routine and that can help, especially when you're not feeling well. Others like spontaneity. So maybe routine makes them safe. But I think getting out into the world regularly,

[00:52:01] however it is, is connecting with people is the key to being happy and integrated and, yeah. Nice. Just a small step out there. Yeah. And that's the, as I said before, the role of men in society has not changed. You know, you're still all those, you know, those roles you have, brother, father, husband, friend, and that hasn't changed and won't change. So, yeah. Connect with others. Try and leave a positive impact in the world. And however small.

[00:52:31] Yeah. Sounds so simple. What about yourself? It does sound simple. And I guess our hope, or my hope anyway, is to inspire the odd person, even one person who listens to this to go, you know what? I've had the chance to do it and I haven't, you know, I haven't taken action on that. Next time that chance arrives, I'm going to do it. Or I might just reach out to that group I've seen pop up on my feed and say hi, introduce myself. So, you know, a little action can yield a big, big change. Dad, what about yourself just in terms of, you know,

[00:53:01] tips to help men particularly, father, sons, uncles, granddads, feel more connected? These are kind of tips to help people. First of all, social media per se, if used properly, is constructive. It was designed to connect people. Unfortunately, it's been misused. And that's the problem.

[00:53:29] One example that I've had for years is a scalpel. In the hands of an assassin, it's an instrument of death. In the hands of a surgeon, it's an instrument of life giving. Interesting. And it's the use of the tool that is the issue, not the tool itself. And one other point that came up from what Tim said, and when he talked about, you know, time with the family

[00:53:58] and going for a walk on the beach, and I immediately thought of sand between your toes, where we have a real connection with the earth from which we've sprung. Nature. The moment we put on shoes, we divorced ourselves from nature. And then we live in these habitats which are not connected with the earth at all. And we're losing our ability to be organic.

[00:54:29] That's really important, I think, Tim. You'd have to agree with that, right? Just the grounding element of, especially, I'm not saying men solely, but certainly for men who for millennia were out in nature working out the wind direction and the sense of different animals and what they could pick up and look at the soil and the rains coming to sitting in an office not knowing if it's night or day wearing rubber sole shoes.

[00:54:57] Because your whole body feels when you're in nature. Yeah. I love it. But, yeah. Was there anything else, Dad? I mean, that's pretty good. Well done. That's my last words of wisdom, I'm afraid. Well, I jotted down three things as we were going here, and I'll just sort of finish with those. I think the first step for me personally, and I've had a lot to unpack and then reconfigure, I guess,

[00:55:27] personally, I think a lot of us do over our lives. And obviously, the older we get, the more we do it. But one of the things is work on yourself. You know, get different perspectives, opinions. Even someone listening to this podcast is doing work right now because they're inspiring thought about their own lives and what, like, in different perspectives and different, and we've got three of us on the call saying kind of similar but slightly different things from different perspectives. And so work on yourself.

[00:55:54] You know, read a book or listen to an audio book or what have you if that's easier or anything just to sort of start to comprehend yourself a little bit better, whether it be a book on communication with your spouse. It could be a good one as well. The second thing I would suggest is that community piece, and I'll underscore, I think all of us have said the same thing, just getting out and making an effort. The reason that I wanted to catch up with Tim,

[00:56:24] to circle right back to the beginning, was I knew I needed someone local who I could catch up with and make me feel like I started, you know, like I've got a bit of a new home here. And, you know, you've helped me build that. And in fact, I could pat myself on the back because, you know, I made that happen as well. So that community piece, huge, one step at a time, one friend at a time. Within a year, you look back and your whole life has changed, as it has mine currently. And the third thing which came up in our conversation was

[00:56:54] look at how you're showing up in those relationships and use that relationship as a bit of a laboratory for how you handle yourself and how you communicate and how you hold your boundaries and, you know, and how open and honest you can be. Because if you can work on that in the relationship where you're often at your most vulnerable, you can apply it outside to, you know, your colleagues and your staff and your kids and all of that sort of stuff. So I think that relationship holds a lot of promise

[00:57:23] to really evolve your behaviours and your thinking and the way you operate in life. Did I just bring the house down when I want? Do I need an encore? No, no. You summed up the conversation well. You summed it up. All right. I went off on a bit of, you know, soliloquy there. Dad, you look like you've got something to add. Son, I just want to come back to what you said about community. I didn't know how disfigured I was psychologically

[00:57:54] until I had to mix with my peer group in the working environment. And I had to do a lot of work on myself. Those days, there weren't therapists and psychologists and what sort of thing. And I found there was always a social club somewhere and I always joined it. Yeah, and I used to play poker too and a few things. And I joined it to contribute and connect on a one-to-one basis with other people.

[00:58:24] And through that process over the years, I've ended up being presidents of all sorts of societies, wine and food, corporate. Audio. Yeah. And it all comes, initially the desire was to in some way heal myself through connecting with people. And bit by bit that process took place, but it also was an opportunity for me to give

[00:58:51] and to have my contributions recognised by people whom I was close to. And that contributed an enormous amount to my growth. Love it. Love it. I think that's a really nice way to sort of park this episode. Tim, mate, it's been so good to have you on. Thanks so much for your insight. Thanks for your friendship. And thanks for spending an hour or so, you know, just gas bag with the jealous itches today.

[00:59:23] Any sort of final thoughts from you just to take us out? Cool. Thanks for having me on. But yeah, I think it's really good. This, what you're doing here. And yeah, I'm actually interested to hear some of the other conversations you've got coming up too, because it's always great to hear from other men who are, you know, doing things, important, exciting things in their lives and seeing how things can be applied to my own. So yeah, it's good. Thank you. Great.

[00:59:52] And you know what you just made me think of then when you're saying, listen to other men and everything? Better men make better societies, right? So the more we listen to each other, the more we learn from each other, our spouses benefit, you know, our partners, our kids, our workplaces. Yes. Everything benefits. So I just think is you can't go backwards. Yep. You know, by opening this up and exploring different perspectives in this area.

[01:00:21] So, you know, thanks for helping us do that. Yes. Thank you, Tim. It's good to meet you, Matt. And yeah, great chatting to you as always, Jason. Yeah. No worries, buddy. All right, Dad. Let's have a quick chat on the way out. The Meet in Him podcast. Well, what a great conversation, Dad. And what a great guy. I mean, I know you haven't really met Tim before. So what were your impressions? I think he's a lovely man.

[01:00:46] I think what he's doing is very spiritual and grounded. And he's doing it from a caring viewpoint and an understanding viewpoint. He's going to grow up to be one incredible human being. Yeah. Yeah, he is. He knows what's important. He knows, you know, setting his roots down. He knows being of service. And just to have been that year for me, you know, it's just amazing.

[01:01:15] When I first started talking to him, I would be blabbing on about, you know, something's going on, trying to see my daughter and a few challenges I had, et cetera. And I'd say, look, I've probably said enough. And he goes, no, because that's what I'm here for. Keep going. And I feel guilty because I'm not used to just keep on talking because I almost always want to flip it over to the other person. Like, I'm taking up too much airtime here. But he'd be, no, no. That's why we're here. What else is going on? Exactly. Wow, Dad.

[01:01:43] What a feeling that is when you can just, when you're finished, you're finished. Yeah. And you can actually breathe properly. Yeah. Because you relax. That's right. The tension comes out of your body. Yeah. So, look, you know, what a fantastic guy. I'd love to have him back again, you know, as we go through. I think that's a good idea. Yeah. Like episode nine or ten. Yeah.

[01:02:11] I think he's going to be a friend of the program, as they say. Friend of the potty. No, no. Friend of the family. Yeah, probably. Friend of the family too. And here's some good news for you too. I have locked in a small handful of speakers who are going to be following up this episode. One of which is a very successful CEO who has very, who talks, who's going to talk about

[01:02:38] bringing up boys and the way to create rituals and in order to give them stability and a sense of self and purpose in their lives. And I think he's going to add a real great conversation to this whole father-son aspect that we're obviously, you know, it's really one of them. That's a very important dynamic and it's a crucial relationship. Oh, totally right. So, getting them off on a good start and he's a brilliant man. He's got so many great ideas. So, he's one of them.

[01:03:06] And I've also got another guy I've known for years who I really admire, who has some amazing insights into male, female or just relationships, but generally relationships in general. And also the role of sex in those relationships and how men approach it and how can approach it in a healthy way, which I thought is going to be such a vital piece of information. Why are you smiling, by the way?

[01:03:34] No, I mean, all men of all ages think sex is healthy, but they don't understand what it's all about. Oh, yeah. Well, some of the conversations I've had with them leading up to obviously trying to get them onto the podcast have been so revelatory. I've just sort of sat back and thought, you've just given me a whole nother perspective to take on this subject of male sexuality, which can be, you know, it can be a pretty sticky subject. No pun intended.

[01:04:04] Oh, my God. Well, I'm reminded of that old saying, men use love to get sex and women use sex to get love. Yeah. Well, that's right. That's right. And there's a whole dynamic in chemistry that goes on all between that and an emotional dance. To anyone who's listening, that sounds incredibly superficial. But there's a real element to it as well. Hmm.

[01:04:28] And another guy who's just confirmed, which I'm really excited about, is a man who's doing some amazing work with men's mental health, who actually runs proactive programs in the local community here. And I'm not even fully aware of all the different strings he has to his bow, but he's super active. He's in the middle of this activity and he's agreed to come on and sort of discuss what he's doing and why he's doing it, I guess, and some of maybe the results he's seen.

[01:04:56] So I thought that's going to be fascinating as well. Is that the one that has got something to do with addictions? No, that's actually another bloke. I've got him as a potential. But so yeah, look, they're lining up and there's a list of about another dozen now of really interesting men who have had a whole range of different experiences. But I just think it'd be great to introduce them to you and also to explore just some of these topics a little bit further. And they're all coming from an area of, I guess, specialty.

[01:05:24] So we'll sort of theme the episode based on what they're bringing to the table and what they've, you know, what they're invested in. It never ceases to surprise me these days, son, how complicated this subject is and how diverse it is. I hadn't realized the different dimensions until I started reading some magazines when I was in hospital. Yeah, that's good because I was hoping that that's what this podcast would be about, but

[01:05:54] I'm glad you've arrived at the theme after season two. You know, it's better than season three, I guess. Well, you've got to take into account I'm a fossil. Yeah, look, hey, you're doing great, Dad. And, you know, these conversations are valuable. It gives us a chance to connect. It gives us a chance to sort of have interesting conversations with interesting people and also have a laugh as well and potentially inspire some action and activity.

[01:06:20] What I will say just for anyone who has listened to this episode or has listened to any others is that we do have a website, meandhimpodcast.com, where you can just throw us an email or jot us an email. You can also follow us on Facebook and Instagram and all the rest of it as well. We're out there, but the easiest way probably is to get to our website. You can listen to all the episodes and reach out to us through there. Lots more to come, Dad. Dad, we're going to be recording another one in a week or so.

[01:06:50] So good luck with the house packing and all the stuff you've got to do in between. I'm interested to hear your progress when we catch up. No worries. Love you too. Love you. Bye. The Meat in Him Podcast. The Meat in Him Podcast.