Ep2: Surviving Primary

[00:00:00] Episode 2 of Me and Him Podcast

[00:00:02] Hi Dad, how are you?

[00:00:04] Very well, thank you son.

[00:00:06] So Me and Him Podcast are all about candid conversations between me and my dad about fatherhood, family, manhood, life, the metaverse, you name it.

[00:00:12] So I'm Me,

[00:00:14] You're Jason, my son.

[00:00:16] And I'm the

[00:00:18] I'm the

[00:00:20] I'm the

[00:00:22] I'm the

[00:00:24] I'm the

[00:00:26] I'm the

[00:00:28] I'm the

[00:00:30] ugly old one with the beard

[00:00:32] his father.

[00:00:34] That's my dad Matt.

[00:00:36] Alright, so Me and Him Podcast just clarifying who's who and who's who here.

[00:00:40] So the reason we're doing this podcast is a we have very interesting conversations.

[00:00:44] So it's nice to be able to catch capture something for posterity, but also not just to explore our own relationship dynamics, but also explore male relationships and stuff like that.

[00:00:48] I think that's fair, isn't it Dad?

[00:00:50] Yeah, it is. And I'm rather excited.

[00:00:52] For me, it's fairly recent, but it's been going on for, I guess, about 10 or 12 years now. Phenomenon of the men's sheds.

[00:00:54] Oh yeah.

[00:00:56] Yeah.

[00:00:58] I think longer than that to be honest, probably 20 years.

[00:01:00] Yeah, well, I'm out of touch, but it's so nice to be able to capture something for posterity, but also not just to explore our own relationship dynamics, but also explore male relationships and stuff going on around us.

[00:01:08] I think that's fair, isn't it Dad?

[00:01:10] Yeah, it is. And I'm rather excited.

[00:01:12] For me, it's fairly recent, but it's been going on for I guess about 10 or 12 years now. Phenon of the men's sheds.

[00:01:14] Oh yeah.

[00:01:16] I think that's fair, but it's so nice to see men getting together and working on joint projects sometimes for their families, sometimes for charity groups or people who've lost something in the floods or whatever.

[00:01:34] Totally right.

[00:01:36] And I've got a friend who lives in Haywood. His name is Bruce. And his men's shed actually has a couple of girls.

[00:01:44] There we go.

[00:01:46] They're mature women.

[00:01:48] Girls can be men too.

[00:01:50] It helps out with the woodworking and everything else.

[00:01:52] That's cool. I like that.

[00:01:54] Men's sheds aren't exclusive.

[00:01:56] Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:58] I've got to get that right because...

[00:02:00] Just like mother's groups aren't exclusive, right?

[00:02:02] There's a lot of temperamentality around these days whereby, you know, just recently the famous play Waiting for Godot which involves three men auditioned for the three men and feminist and other groups have said that was judgmental because why women auditioned for the role of three men?

[00:02:26] I mean, it just gets crazy sometimes Dad.

[00:02:30] You know what's funny? You bring out the men's shed, you know, it's on topic but it wasn't what I was planning to come up with.

[00:02:38] I've actually just been inquiring about something called the men's table and it's another version of men's shed and it's basically a dinner once a month that a group of men up to 12 get together.

[00:02:48] And there's none up here where I live which I think is good to explain where we live too.

[00:02:52] I'm in Port Macquarie, New South Wales, Australia and Dad is in Caulfield South, Victoria, Australia.

[00:02:59] So we meet online to have this conversation but I looked up Dad about these men's tables and they're not doing one at Port Macquarie so I've actually inquired to attend a sort of an entree event they call it.

[00:03:10] Yeah.

[00:03:11] Keeping the dinner theme with a mate of mine to maybe start a table up here.

[00:03:14] I just thought that would be, you know, bring some men together, good for community, good for conversations.

[00:03:19] That's very constructive, son. I hardly endorse that.

[00:03:23] But just be prepared for and I am not saying anything negative about women because I adore women but there are some loonies out there who'd like to misconstrue everything for their own notoriety

[00:03:37] and they cause trouble when something like what you have just described to me are well-intentioned endeavors to have a constructive engagement amongst people who don't often have that opportunity.

[00:03:51] Absolutely, absolutely. So I'll cross that bridge when I come to it right now.

[00:03:56] I figured, you know, good way to get something going, have a few more conversations and obviously get a few more listeners as well for the podcast.

[00:04:03] So just by way of talking about where we're at and what's coming up next, you've got a big event coming up soon.

[00:04:11] Why don't you just tell me quickly about it or share a little bit about it?

[00:04:15] I've had a lifetime of excessive hospitality. I had the energy to do it once. I don't have it now.

[00:04:22] So I'm hiring a restaurant for my 80th birthday celebration and I'm so pleased that my family is coming.

[00:04:30] And because my daughter has a very significant job and right now, which is when I would have celebrated it because my birthday was last week.

[00:04:41] A couple of weeks ago.

[00:04:42] Yeah. She's attending an international conference in Kentucky and I've deferred it by a month so that she and her family can come down and join you and your family.

[00:04:56] Absolutely.

[00:04:57] And your brother and his lovely wife and we could all be together because my age, this is the last big event.

[00:05:06] I can't see me having another one and family is so goddamn important. It's just unbelievable.

[00:05:12] Yeah. Well, kudos to you. We were there for your 70th and that was your like, this will be the last one now.

[00:05:21] I had one in between, which was my 75th Matz used by a date party.

[00:05:26] That's right. And then didn't you have the 64 life begins at?

[00:05:30] Well, that's when I turned 64. I suddenly realized it was in sync with one of the Beatles songs.

[00:05:36] So yeah, I had to.

[00:05:38] But you know, times have changed and so have I.

[00:05:42] Yeah. And you're hiring a restaurant this time, which is great because you know all the stuff involved in doing it in your place.

[00:05:48] You know, there's a lot of work there. Now with regard to this event, I believe it was 60 people coming down or coming around, including my sister and family coming over from all over Europe basically.

[00:05:59] And obviously I'm coming down from up north and the whole bunch of other friends and audio.

[00:06:05] I mean, there are friends of mine whom I've known since the 50s and because high fire has been an important part of my life since the mid 70s.

[00:06:16] High fidelity sound.

[00:06:19] Those uninitiated.

[00:06:21] But you know, like everything, no matter what club you join, there can be food clubs or hot rod clubs or motorcycle clubs or whatever.

[00:06:33] And by the way, there are far many motorcycle clubs that don't wear patches and go around doing naughty things.

[00:06:43] So you're coming to Hell's Angels.

[00:06:45] Oh, no, I've got a very good friend of mine from the audio environment who's motorcycle to cross the world.

[00:06:53] And he's a member of a motorcycle club and they get together and have a really nice time.

[00:06:59] Well, I'm looking forward to it.

[00:07:01] Obviously, I'm off the booze right now in preparation, but it's going to be a fantastic time.

[00:07:07] Great to be able to celebrate with a great be able to see your face to face and the whole family there too.

[00:07:11] It's going to be a fantastic event.

[00:07:12] So why don't we just get into it?

[00:07:15] The Meet in Him podcast.

[00:07:18] I actually really enjoyed hearing a bit more about my great granddad, I guess it was.

[00:07:24] What was his name by the way? His first name?

[00:07:27] The same as mine, but in...

[00:07:29] Oh, was it?

[00:07:30] Yeah.

[00:07:31] My mine is Matthew and in Dalmatian it's Mate.

[00:07:36] Mate.

[00:07:37] And you think I should know that, right?

[00:07:39] And what you probably don't know either is that I've got three names, Matthew, Joseph, Paul.

[00:07:46] I think I know this.

[00:07:48] Yeah.

[00:07:49] Matthew is my grandfather.

[00:07:51] Joseph is my father and Paul is his younger brother, my uncle.

[00:07:59] Well, I was quite taken with the story particularly about granddad at a very young age being kind of marooned on the wolf

[00:08:07] and being taken in by other Dalmatians.

[00:08:10] But I'd love to hear a bit more, just focus a little bit more on the background there

[00:08:15] and anything you want to share around being brought up by an immigrant father

[00:08:22] but also just the times as well, you know, it's a different era back then.

[00:08:26] Well, first I just want to mention something.

[00:08:29] I did say in the previous broadcast that when World War I broke out my granddad

[00:08:38] and Ditta is the name in Dalmatian for granddad.

[00:08:41] Yes, remember that.

[00:08:43] Was in the Austro-Hungarian Navy.

[00:08:46] Well, I have here his wooden chest that he had his clothing and so forth in.

[00:08:54] Oh, wow.

[00:08:55] And...

[00:08:56] I think I've seen it actually.

[00:08:57] I think you've shown it to me.

[00:08:58] Well, I want the family to keep it.

[00:09:00] No, not because it is such emotional importance to me.

[00:09:04] Both of my parents had to work.

[00:09:07] I was born in 44 at the end of the war and so there were no craches or, you know, places where you take your preschool children.

[00:09:19] So one of them, usually my mother, you know, took the tram early and dropped me off with my grandparents where they lived.

[00:09:29] So I had an enormous exposure to my grandparents from a very early age

[00:09:35] and that's why I brought up the my granddad's sea chest, which is for the people who are listening.

[00:09:42] It's like the old fashioned treasure chests.

[00:09:45] It's exactly the same shape and so forth because I was fascinated by it as a pre-toddler.

[00:09:54] I used to pull myself up on it and when I got bigger, I was actually allowed to look inside it

[00:10:01] and I saw my granddad's passports and the old passports, they put a stamp,

[00:10:07] a postage stamp from the country in the passport to signify your entry.

[00:10:13] It's now, of course, a rubber stamp or a...

[00:10:18] No, they don't even do that anymore.

[00:10:20] Yeah, I know. I mean, I scan it.

[00:10:23] And the technology breaks down and I've been in those long queues when it's broken down.

[00:10:28] I can tell you that.

[00:10:30] So I became fascinated with its contents and because I was growing up as an inquisitive child

[00:10:38] and I spent so much time with my grandparents because my parents were working very hard,

[00:10:43] I used to ask my grandmother about how to do things.

[00:10:47] So by the age of eight, I could cook, sew, knit, iron, wash and crochet.

[00:10:54] Yeah, you had the perfect health way.

[00:10:56] As an eight year old.

[00:10:59] Wow, that doesn't happen anymore.

[00:11:02] So you can imagine how that changed the tenor of my relationships with the good ladies

[00:11:07] who I was with over 60 years because our jobs were interchangeable.

[00:11:14] Whoever was home did it, whether it was the ironing or the cooking or so forth.

[00:11:20] We had very fluid relationships now.

[00:11:23] Sorry, I move forward in time. I better go back to the past.

[00:11:26] No, no, no, but I think it's important because you're laying a foundation here

[00:11:29] because I think what I'm interested in for this podcast is, you know, sharing stories

[00:11:35] that for both of from both of our perspectives that maybe each of other of us

[00:11:39] didn't really know or didn't really consider previously.

[00:11:42] And obviously there's a history element here too.

[00:11:45] And I'm sure anyone who's listening who's going to listen to this down the line

[00:11:49] also has that sort of background and try to understand their parents and their grandparents.

[00:11:53] It's not an uncommon story as well about the changes and the hardships

[00:11:59] and how things have modernized and maybe we've got a little bit soft now.

[00:12:03] I don't know. So I don't think it's a real...

[00:12:05] Well, funny enough, half of my hospitality skill set came from those formative years

[00:12:10] with my grandparents. I just learned how to do it.

[00:12:14] Well, you definitely love cooking, I can vouch for that.

[00:12:16] Yeah, I know. I've been cooking for almost 75 years.

[00:12:21] And I know I've overdone it a lot. So sorry about that.

[00:12:26] Just have to eat it all.

[00:12:28] We lived in an apartment above a secondhand shop in the middle of Auckland City.

[00:12:37] And I'm a city boy, but in the late 40s and early 50s, the inner city was an ugly place.

[00:12:46] It didn't have the glamour and the, you know,

[00:12:49] re-wheeling entertainment opportunities that it has today.

[00:12:53] I guess it was all about industry and, you know...

[00:12:56] Well, it was rebuilding after the war.

[00:12:59] And those times were very austere.

[00:13:02] And money was hard to come by. You had to really work your butt off.

[00:13:08] Both of my parents worked long hours.

[00:13:10] And, you know, they both got home after six o'clock, which was quite late those days.

[00:13:16] And then had to start the preparation for a meal, etc.

[00:13:21] So that's why I spent such a long period of time with my grandparents.

[00:13:26] It might have been like that.

[00:13:28] But the apartment that we were in,

[00:13:31] the only access to it was from an alleyway behind a bakery

[00:13:37] on the corner of Hobson Street and Victoria Street.

[00:13:41] And it was a dangerous place because drunks and all sorts of weird people

[00:13:47] used to congregate in places like that,

[00:13:50] which are very close to all the major hotels, etc.

[00:13:54] And there was something like about 34 wooden steps from where we entered

[00:14:02] in a small area at the back, which served for my mother's washing line.

[00:14:06] And old fashioned boil everything up in a big concrete cylinder,

[00:14:12] which you had to fire up with timber and so forth.

[00:14:16] And the only toilet was an outhouse at the bottom...

[00:14:22] Outside the bottom of those 34 steps.

[00:14:25] That sucks when you bust it.

[00:14:28] And once as a baby when I was crawling and my parents told me this,

[00:14:32] I actually crawled over the top and fell down.

[00:14:36] But it turns out the instinctive response of a small child

[00:14:40] is to group itself in the fetal position.

[00:14:44] And that saved me from being maimed for life.

[00:14:47] I mean, they couldn't believe it when they got to the bottom.

[00:14:50] Of course I was howling as pre-toddlers do.

[00:14:54] It was first of your nine lives, I think.

[00:14:57] First of your 38, I don't know how many lives you had.

[00:15:01] Let's settle for 90 lives.

[00:15:05] I'm sure I've blitzed about 75 so far.

[00:15:09] And there was no...

[00:15:12] At that stage until my father through his contractor friends put it in.

[00:15:17] There was no hot water.

[00:15:19] There was no lighting.

[00:15:21] And there was just one gas stove to cook on.

[00:15:25] And that was it.

[00:15:27] And we all, my dad, my mom and me, separately of course,

[00:15:31] we all bathed in a tin bath.

[00:15:36] One which was on the floor.

[00:15:40] And my mother had to of course boil many, many kettles full of water.

[00:15:46] Wow.

[00:15:48] I don't think people really understand.

[00:15:51] I mean, really in the terms of history it's a blink of the eye ago.

[00:15:55] Of course.

[00:15:56] It's just not that long ago where you've got encroaching darkness,

[00:16:00] you've got cold, you've got fires running in the house.

[00:16:04] You've got, as you say, you're boiling up clothes to try and wash them.

[00:16:08] Nothing to switch on.

[00:16:10] And by the way, that little one gas stove,

[00:16:14] they heated the place as well.

[00:16:16] I had a feeling.

[00:16:18] And you know, and that comes to explain the attitude,

[00:16:22] I guess of granddad as I knew him being so house proud

[00:16:27] and so proud of his yard and proud of his,

[00:16:30] all the things he had collected, his car,

[00:16:33] because he had to fight for everything.

[00:16:36] And from what you've just explained,

[00:16:38] there was little if not nothing that didn't have to be created from scratch.

[00:16:43] By the way, I'm sorry to interrupt you son.

[00:16:45] All of the improvements he did to the apartment upstairs,

[00:16:49] he did with my parents own money,

[00:16:53] but he was helped through his contract of friends.

[00:16:56] The landlord did not provide any compensation.

[00:17:00] Just a roof over your head basically by the sounds of things.

[00:17:02] But he did increase the rents.

[00:17:04] Because the property was now renovated.

[00:17:08] Yes.

[00:17:09] Renovated.

[00:17:10] Would you believe it?

[00:17:11] Now with hot water.

[00:17:14] How exciting.

[00:17:15] Well, that's really interesting just to,

[00:17:17] I can actually picture that.

[00:17:19] And you've told me a little bit some pieces of this before,

[00:17:22] but I think this is a really good journey to take for us to take

[00:17:25] to understand not just the austerity,

[00:17:29] but just the change through the generations as well.

[00:17:32] And we can obviously reflect on those through,

[00:17:36] as we continue these discussions.

[00:17:38] I think that's perfect.

[00:17:40] I want to flip it and just reflect a little bit about my early years.

[00:17:45] Absolutely.

[00:17:46] Cool with that?

[00:17:47] I mean, look, you will be giving me new information

[00:17:49] and I'm really interested to hear it.

[00:17:52] Yeah.

[00:17:53] All right.

[00:17:54] Whether I like it or not.

[00:17:56] Buck yourself in.

[00:17:58] Here we go.

[00:17:59] The Meet in Him podcast.

[00:18:03] Son, we've been talking a lot about me so far

[00:18:05] and I feel as if I'm hogging the limelight.

[00:18:08] It's obviously difficult.

[00:18:09] You can't recall your memories of when you were three and a half,

[00:18:13] but how was it for you in those early days?

[00:18:16] And tell me something about your experiences.

[00:18:19] Oh yeah, certainly.

[00:18:21] Thank you for asking.

[00:18:22] I don't remember a lot.

[00:18:25] Like many of us pre five years old,

[00:18:29] I do have a couple of recollections of Avondale

[00:18:33] where we lived with mom and my brother and sister.

[00:18:37] Again, very sporadic sort of thoughts.

[00:18:41] Where I really can remember with some level of clarity

[00:18:47] is when we lived in Gratton Place.

[00:18:50] Now, Gratton Place is in an area called Freeman's Bay,

[00:18:53] which was a newly developed suburb,

[00:18:56] which apparently was formerly slums,

[00:18:59] which you have got a bit of history around, I think as well.

[00:19:02] I went to school in Napier Street School in Freeman's Bay,

[00:19:07] which was the slum school of Auckland decades beforehand.

[00:19:13] Yeah, isn't that funny?

[00:19:15] So we ended up back there when mom moved from Avondale closer to the city

[00:19:19] and I started, it was then called Freeman's Bay Primary, I think,

[00:19:23] to change its name.

[00:19:25] Sorry for the interruption son.

[00:19:27] No, that's fine.

[00:19:29] The whole area had become gentrified over the passage of about 20 or 30 years.

[00:19:35] So it was a smart place to live and the slum school that I had gone to,

[00:19:41] which was the same set of buildings that you went to,

[00:19:45] had been gentrified too to suit the development of the area.

[00:19:50] That's right.

[00:19:51] We lived in some really nifty looking townhouses

[00:19:54] that were built with common grounds at the back of them

[00:19:57] with nice foliage and what have you.

[00:19:59] So it was actually a good decent place to live.

[00:20:01] However, I will point out that the slums hadn't disappeared.

[00:20:04] They were just around the periphery of that area, greyland, etc.

[00:20:08] So whilst we had, we were in a nice little pocket there,

[00:20:13] the area was still a little bit downtrodden.

[00:20:15] Now with regard to my memories though,

[00:20:18] I remember my first day of school sitting on the floor

[00:20:22] at the assembly at Gratton Street, sorry, at Freeman's Bay Primary

[00:20:26] and really being completely lost.

[00:20:28] And when I looked around, I had,

[00:20:31] I hadn't been exposed in a large way to the outside world,

[00:20:35] I guess at that age.

[00:20:36] This was the first time, you know, five years old,

[00:20:38] you're thrown into the fray.

[00:20:39] And so I do another interruption at some other point,

[00:20:44] maybe not even in this particular podcast.

[00:20:47] Let's come back to how you felt your first day at school

[00:20:51] because I clearly remember my, right about your age,

[00:20:55] my first day and I'm interrupting you so please,

[00:20:58] I'll shut up and let you carry on.

[00:21:01] But as some other stage, let's do that.

[00:21:04] So my mum told me this actually when I came back from my first day

[00:21:10] and she goes, how was your first day at school darling?

[00:21:13] And I said, oh it's pretty good, but mum, they're all Indians.

[00:21:17] And she, I think surmised that they were,

[00:21:23] I'd never really had a lot to do with Polynesian kids before.

[00:21:26] So I must have just thought they were all Indians.

[00:21:29] And it was the first time, I guess that I started to understand

[00:21:33] that the area I was living was very heavily Polynesian concentrated.

[00:21:37] A lot of the families were quite afresh off from the islands

[00:21:40] and that they'd come to settle in a cheaper area.

[00:21:43] And this is probably where the sort of lowest socioeconomic areas

[00:21:46] still existed outside of the Fringe of Frim's Bay.

[00:21:49] And hence begun my foray into, I guess I would call it

[00:21:54] the survival of primary school.

[00:21:57] And the reason I frame it like that is those years,

[00:22:02] I think we can't underestimate how indelible the memories

[00:22:07] and the emotions and the experiences are from those years.

[00:22:11] And also I don't remember a lot between zero and five.

[00:22:15] From five to ten, I remember a hell of a lot

[00:22:18] and I remember being scared, a vast proportion of my childhood.

[00:22:24] And I say this not as any guilt-tripping or anything like that.

[00:22:28] I just remember I had a single mum who was struggling to work

[00:22:31] and cope with three kids and couldn't be everywhere all at once.

[00:22:36] And I pretty much was in a school where the language,

[00:22:41] the common language of the majority of the students

[00:22:45] and population there was violent.

[00:22:48] It was, you know, smash your face in, bro, was the call of the day.

[00:22:53] So if you did not either do what someone wanted

[00:22:57] or fallen with the right crowd or stand out in whatever way,

[00:23:00] you were ruthlessly not just bullied but often just pummeled

[00:23:05] at a first port of call before conversation.

[00:23:08] So I was intimidated by this

[00:23:11] and I didn't really have anyone to call on.

[00:23:14] And this obviously relates to the development of malehood

[00:23:18] and fathering and this degree having an absent father.

[00:23:21] I didn't know what you've just told me

[00:23:24] because my experience 30 years before you was identical.

[00:23:30] Right, okay.

[00:23:32] Well, let's see if this...

[00:23:34] I thought everything had approved with Freeman's babe.

[00:23:37] No, it was 80% Polynesian Maori, which is fine.

[00:23:42] No problem with that.

[00:23:44] But there was a cohort of that group that were new arrivals

[00:23:47] whose parents were very violent with them

[00:23:51] and they took that to school with them.

[00:23:54] And so from my perspective being a kind of a sheltered white kid,

[00:23:59] I was the minority.

[00:24:00] I was also the weaker species.

[00:24:04] And I had to find a way to survive.

[00:24:07] And the way that I went about this was I had to bring in a bodyguard.

[00:24:14] And so I seconded a kid, I used to call him...

[00:24:18] I felt like he was a man back in those days

[00:24:20] because he was so much bigger than me,

[00:24:22] but a guy named Lungi who was Samoan.

[00:24:26] And he was kind of cool, cool guy, kind of funny and everything.

[00:24:30] But he and I became mates.

[00:24:32] And I think the reason that we were mates was I would give him half my lunch every day

[00:24:37] because he didn't have lunch to bring to school.

[00:24:39] And whenever I bought in and then called it, I liked like a new toy I got for Christmas.

[00:24:42] I remember one time bringing in a microscope which I was super enamored with

[00:24:46] and I made the mistake of bringing it out to school

[00:24:48] and then Lungi wanted to have a look at it

[00:24:50] and I'm like, oh here we go.

[00:24:52] And of course Lungi stole it and never gave it back to me.

[00:24:54] In those days I guess he was saying hey just lend it to your friend.

[00:24:57] But everything I lent to my friend slash bodyguard never came back to me.

[00:25:01] So I had Lungi in my corner

[00:25:04] and the only reason I needed Lungi in my corner was because

[00:25:08] and you wouldn't believe this, you'd write a script about this.

[00:25:11] There was another little white kid even smaller than me named Winky Schmidt.

[00:25:16] Now Winky Schmidt, right now I will never forget this name.

[00:25:20] Never forget it.

[00:25:21] Winky Schmidt's father was German

[00:25:23] and Winky Schmidt would come to school in a flak jacket

[00:25:26] with a Nazi insignia on it.

[00:25:29] Wow.

[00:25:30] I know.

[00:25:31] Look, I accepted it as normal back then

[00:25:35] because I didn't know any difference

[00:25:36] and I think back to it now going are you kidding me?

[00:25:39] His dad might be next SS, I don't know.

[00:25:42] So anyway, Winky was an evil little mofo.

[00:25:45] Let me tell you he was after me maybe because

[00:25:48] maybe because I don't know had a mother around

[00:25:52] or I don't know but he was gunning for me the whole time

[00:25:55] and so he had got enlisted his own bodyguard called Kefi

[00:26:00] and Kefi was a New Ayan dude who was big.

[00:26:05] From my experience in the old days

[00:26:07] it was the New Ayan's who used to carry the knives.

[00:26:11] This guy was scary.

[00:26:12] So I had Lungi, he had Kefi

[00:26:15] and just like robot wars or something

[00:26:18] when we got to a point of a precipice

[00:26:21] when there was going to be a major argument

[00:26:23] or a combative situation

[00:26:25] we'd sent in our bodyguards to fight each other.

[00:26:29] Can you believe it?

[00:26:31] I can't hardly believe it telling you.

[00:26:33] The one world of wrestling.

[00:26:36] There was survival at that point

[00:26:39] and obviously Winky must have been giving Kefi

[00:26:41] some of this pocket money or something as well

[00:26:43] because they were going about on our behalf

[00:26:46] and so right through probably up until I left there

[00:26:50] I was going to go to intermediate school

[00:26:52] that maybe 12 years old.

[00:26:54] I had to work out a way to navigate this hostile terrain

[00:26:58] and Lungi, I actually count him as a friend at the time

[00:27:02] because he paved the way for me to be able to exist

[00:27:06] and feel some degree of safety at school.

[00:27:09] Winky was just, I don't know what's become of him

[00:27:13] but he was a pretty messed up little kid

[00:27:16] and obviously didn't like me for whatever reason

[00:27:18] maybe I was a little brat too

[00:27:20] but I don't remember doing anything to him

[00:27:22] he just sort of decided I was person on gratter

[00:27:24] and wanted to see my downfall.

[00:27:26] So that was my sort of early childhood years

[00:27:30] and the one thing I will say

[00:27:32] as all this was shaping up

[00:27:34] was that I yearned to have someone

[00:27:38] to stand up for me and protect me.

[00:27:40] I had to pay someone with my lunch money

[00:27:44] to do that because there wasn't a dad

[00:27:47] to come in and put someone in their place

[00:27:49] or at least you know

[00:27:51] even going to school in place

[00:27:55] playing soccer or sport

[00:27:57] I'm going to show up on team.

[00:27:59] So I kind of just had to find my way through

[00:28:03] from a sort of a broken marriage

[00:28:06] in my environment

[00:28:08] through to a hostile school environment

[00:28:10] and I just had to find a way to cut a path

[00:28:14] and I did you know I did

[00:28:16] but I didn't realize until much much later

[00:28:18] how much fear I was left with from that experience

[00:28:22] and it's carried through

[00:28:24] for at least two decades

[00:28:26] after finishing school

[00:28:28] until I wondered why I was carrying this almost terror

[00:28:33] that I buried

[00:28:35] and I thought I was acting normally

[00:28:37] I played a role

[00:28:39] but inside it was like a called spring.

[00:28:41] Thank you for sharing that with me

[00:28:43] because I have never ever known it until this point

[00:28:48] and somewhere along the line

[00:28:51] in our series of conversations

[00:28:54] I want you to bring up Napier Street School

[00:28:57] because I had a set of experiences

[00:29:01] decades before

[00:29:02] which so close to what you're describing

[00:29:05] it's unbelievable.

[00:29:06] Well I mean history repeats right unfortunately

[00:29:10] Oh yeah sadly.

[00:29:12] I mean there's another cheery segue into split ends

[00:29:18] and you know history never repeats

[00:29:21] I tell myself before I go to sleep

[00:29:24] so there's a little bit of a snapshot I guess

[00:29:26] and what I'd love to do in future episodes

[00:29:29] is and definitely I'll ask you that question Dad

[00:29:32] but unpack not just what happened

[00:29:36] but just also how it showed up

[00:29:39] how it truncated some of the life that we could have lived

[00:29:45] and the talents we could have pursued

[00:29:47] and the self-insuredness that we could have experienced

[00:29:52] because of this functional slash dangerous

[00:29:57] you know if we want to get glib

[00:30:00] we could call it formative trauma.

[00:30:03] Formative trauma.

[00:30:05] Yeah that's pretty much what it is

[00:30:08] and I don't think we're alone in that you know

[00:30:10] that's where it's put.

[00:30:12] I'm sure we're not because the bullying exists

[00:30:16] in just about every school.

[00:30:19] It takes different forms.

[00:30:21] You're right it's a bit more subtle now

[00:30:23] than the big islander guy wanted to smash your face in right

[00:30:26] like I mean it's made that might happen

[00:30:28] but it's now quite insidious

[00:30:32] and built into every time you pick up the phone.

[00:30:34] Yeah and I sometimes wonder

[00:30:37] and I've never had any experience of this

[00:30:40] I've had your experiences

[00:30:42] but I've never been sent to a boarding school

[00:30:45] by well-to-do parents

[00:30:47] and sometimes wonder what psychological damage

[00:30:52] that environment can cause.

[00:30:54] Absolutely yeah look as we progress

[00:30:57] I would love to hear from listeners

[00:30:59] and hear what people have gone through

[00:31:02] with their own take on that.

[00:31:04] I mean one hand I think hey boarding school

[00:31:06] might have been safer

[00:31:07] but hey I couldn't even go on home then

[00:31:09] like I would be at the mercy of whoever the

[00:31:12] you know the strongest, toughest, meanest person

[00:31:15] was in that environment which probably would have been worse.

[00:31:18] Son I fully understand

[00:31:21] and sometimes in the future

[00:31:23] if this develops into a series

[00:31:25] remind me and I'll tell you about

[00:31:28] my experience in Napier Street School

[00:31:31] and I'm kind of shocked that yours

[00:31:34] 25 years later was so similar

[00:31:38] when the area had you know become upmarket.

[00:31:42] Hmm well maybe it was just the changing

[00:31:45] of the garden it was happening slowly

[00:31:47] but let's hope now it's a happy place to be.

[00:31:50] Alright let's keep it moving

[00:31:52] Oh yeah let's load up our rifles.

[00:31:55] Yeah well that's right and school isn't a happy place

[00:31:58] to be in a lot of places in the world

[00:32:00] especially in America.

[00:32:02] Yeah well it literally is a war zone

[00:32:04] and there's a whole another conversation

[00:32:06] about disaffected males right there

[00:32:08] with access to guns but look

[00:32:10] let's keep it short and sweet on that one

[00:32:15] I would not move on because I want to touch on

[00:32:18] one of your emails in the next segment

[00:32:20] so let's try that out.

[00:32:22] Emails from Dad.

[00:32:26] So this is called emails from Dad

[00:32:29] so what you may not know

[00:32:32] what you definitely don't know is that

[00:32:34] my dad likes to send a lot of emails

[00:32:36] and there's lots of what he calls

[00:32:38] map crap mixed in there.

[00:32:39] It can be poetry, it can be a funny video

[00:32:42] it can be just a download

[00:32:44] a mind dump of various things

[00:32:46] a quote of the day you name it

[00:32:48] sometimes I read them in full

[00:32:50] sometimes I quickly check them and go

[00:32:52] ah that's too much for me right now

[00:32:54] I'm going to be able to read them

[00:32:56] and then I'll have a dialogue around them

[00:32:58] so I've gone through the

[00:33:00] and I found a pulled out one

[00:33:02] that is not it's actually fairly recent

[00:33:04] called continuous creation

[00:33:06] it was headed as and

[00:33:08] it seems it's a nice little

[00:33:10] poem because you're a bit of a poet

[00:33:12] and you do know it

[00:33:14] I think it'd be nice

[00:33:16] to not only have you

[00:33:18] speak to how

[00:33:20] you came up with this poem

[00:33:22] but also read the poem because it's nice and short

[00:33:24] not like the one I did like

[00:33:26] I've learnt my lesson from last episode

[00:33:28] took me an hour and a half I was like

[00:33:30] oh my god I was exhausted

[00:33:32] it serves you right

[00:33:34] you didn't get us my permission

[00:33:36] we live and we learn right so

[00:33:38] a nice three stands of poem I think

[00:33:40] I could handle that so yeah so tell us a little bit

[00:33:42] about this inspiration

[00:33:44] you got on the way back from Bella

[00:33:46] Clava well the reason

[00:33:48] why I called the email

[00:33:50] continuous creation is that

[00:33:52] I write a lot

[00:33:54] but I'm not disciplined

[00:33:56] which is a shame I've probably got

[00:33:58] multiple degrees in procrastination

[00:34:00] but most of what I write

[00:34:02] just comes to me I could be

[00:34:04] mowing the lawns or you know

[00:34:06] doing something really mundane and

[00:34:08] I've got to write this stuff down

[00:34:10] and I happen to be driving

[00:34:12] back from the restaurant

[00:34:14] where I'm having my 80th

[00:34:16] birthday celebration

[00:34:18] I took a shortcut so it was

[00:34:20] through streets that I wasn't

[00:34:22] familiar with but I got a

[00:34:24] very good sense of compass

[00:34:26] direction in my head so I

[00:34:28] knew that I was travelling in the right

[00:34:30] way and as I turned

[00:34:32] to corner I saw a street name

[00:34:34] called McHenry and I thought

[00:34:36] gee that's odd I've never seen

[00:34:38] a street named McHenry before

[00:34:40] and I continued driving and

[00:34:42] when I was driving this piece

[00:34:44] of dog rule came into my head

[00:34:46] sorry what did you call that?

[00:34:48] Dog rule it's an old term for nonsense

[00:34:50] Dog rule okay I learnt something today

[00:34:52] alright yeah google it

[00:34:54] you'll find it exists

[00:34:56] anyway so

[00:34:58] that's the background

[00:35:00] it just sort of came into my head and

[00:35:02] I made a

[00:35:04] point of trying to remember it

[00:35:06] on the drive back home and I did

[00:35:08] and I wrote it down

[00:35:10] this is your weird dad

[00:35:12] Caleb McHenry a soldier

[00:35:14] on the land

[00:35:16] he laid down his rifle and ran his fingers

[00:35:18] through the sand it spoke to him

[00:35:20] of memories and

[00:35:22] seasons still to come

[00:35:24] and how men like fruit can

[00:35:26] ripen when they turn towards

[00:35:28] the sun

[00:35:30] okay so I

[00:35:32] read that twice

[00:35:34] and first time I read it I thought oh this sounds like a little bit of war poem

[00:35:36] and then when I read it

[00:35:38] I reread it I got stuck on that last

[00:35:40] stanza I think we call it

[00:35:42] war a last piece of prose and

[00:35:44] the ripen towards the sun I just

[00:35:46] in my mind flashed to

[00:35:48] like the carnage of one of

[00:35:50] the world wars and men just rotting

[00:35:52] I don't know if that's where you were going with that

[00:35:54] actually son

[00:35:56] it's been grandiose to call it a work of art

[00:35:58] which it isn't

[00:36:00] it's just scribble from me but

[00:36:02] if we want to look at just to get

[00:36:04] the metaphor right pictures

[00:36:06] hanging in an art gallery

[00:36:08] people from different walks of life

[00:36:10] or different stages

[00:36:12] 10 year olds versus

[00:36:14] 30 year olds versus

[00:36:16] 70 year olds they'll have a different

[00:36:18] response to the exactly the same

[00:36:20] display

[00:36:22] now your response

[00:36:24] I find really interesting

[00:36:26] right because

[00:36:28] I got it wrong

[00:36:30] no no no there's no right and wrong

[00:36:32] side you know with this kind of stuff

[00:36:34] we're all individuals

[00:36:36] and we all map the world

[00:36:38] in completely different

[00:36:40] unique ways that's

[00:36:42] how we built when I

[00:36:44] and I'm proud of those last four lines

[00:36:46] by the way and how

[00:36:48] men like fruit can ripen

[00:36:50] when they turn towards the sun

[00:36:52] I didn't think about

[00:36:54] this this damn thing

[00:36:56] just came but when I stopped to think

[00:36:58] about it I thought I saw it

[00:37:00] as linking back to the soldier

[00:37:02] who put down his arms

[00:37:04] and suddenly stopped

[00:37:06] ripping across the earth but suddenly

[00:37:08] got in touch with it

[00:37:10] oh wow and everything that

[00:37:12] the earth gives us and ripen as

[00:37:14] an upcoming of age sort of thing

[00:37:16] yeah and so then

[00:37:18] I saw him mentally

[00:37:20] as becoming a farmer

[00:37:22] oh wow as

[00:37:24] someone who knew that the earth

[00:37:26] nurtured everything

[00:37:28] including humanity but that's

[00:37:30] a much broader

[00:37:32] metaphor to deal with

[00:37:34] and if the sun is shining

[00:37:36] from the right direction

[00:37:38] the fruits that are hanging down

[00:37:40] whether they be mangoes or anything

[00:37:42] else will

[00:37:44] ripen to the best of

[00:37:46] their ability because

[00:37:48] they've got the most military environment

[00:37:50] wow I've just seen this a completely

[00:37:52] different way now and that's

[00:37:54] how it fell to me but

[00:37:56] I don't believe those four lines came out of

[00:37:58] me because even I look at them

[00:38:00] and think holy shit yeah and that's

[00:38:02] pretty pretty tight

[00:38:04] in terms of what it conveys

[00:38:06] and I just find

[00:38:08] just building on what you've just explained there

[00:38:10] I feel like there is this element of

[00:38:12] when you plant a seed

[00:38:14] and you give it the right sunlight

[00:38:16] and water and soil conditions

[00:38:18] it will thrive it will grow

[00:38:20] to its fullest extent of

[00:38:22] being whatever the plant is

[00:38:24] and if you we're all seeds

[00:38:26] yes and if you don't have

[00:38:28] all the right mixture of elements the right amount of sun

[00:38:30] have you correct you won't grow

[00:38:32] to your full potential

[00:38:34] and so men can ripen

[00:38:36] as they turn towards the sun I feel like I'm turning

[00:38:38] towards the sun right now and maybe

[00:38:40] ripening in that respect is a

[00:38:42] wonderful thing no hang on you're the

[00:38:44] son I'm the father

[00:38:46] let's not steal the rolls

[00:38:48] as you're looking at me

[00:38:50] I'm sorry I can't help

[00:38:52] but play with the language I love it

[00:38:54] so much well I really like

[00:38:56] that that poem and I do

[00:38:58] think it's important when the urge

[00:39:00] to create all the spontaneous

[00:39:02] thoughts come through to

[00:39:04] honor them by expressing them

[00:39:06] which is why I create melodies and write

[00:39:08] songs and stuff I just honor

[00:39:10] what I need to do because

[00:39:12] I understand it's all about the flow through

[00:39:14] now it's not about what I'm going

[00:39:16] to do with this how I'm going to produce it

[00:39:18] or you know what am I you know who I'm going to show it to

[00:39:20] I just need to do it

[00:39:22] because the creativity is part of my connection

[00:39:24] to something far deeper than just

[00:39:26] myself what you're really saying

[00:39:28] oh okay please please clarify

[00:39:30] and I'm over explaining this

[00:39:32] we men tend to be driven by logic

[00:39:34] most of the time and

[00:39:36] we've got intuition but we don't

[00:39:38] give it the rightful place

[00:39:40] that it serves

[00:39:42] but when we are in an

[00:39:44] intuitive mode

[00:39:46] we don't know what we're capable of

[00:39:48] until it comes out yeah and you gotta

[00:39:50] let you gotta be open and

[00:39:52] and allow it to flow

[00:39:54] forth without getting

[00:39:56] irrational mind involved I guess

[00:39:58] well to minimize

[00:40:00] your rational mind

[00:40:02] irrational as the case may be

[00:40:04] well I liked it well done

[00:40:06] I'm going to choose from now on I've decided

[00:40:08] making executive decision here on the me and him podcast

[00:40:10] that I'm going to choose a quote of

[00:40:12] the day which is nice and short or

[00:40:14] a short poem

[00:40:16] or something that's punchy

[00:40:18] you're really going to embarrass them

[00:40:20] because there's so much there like there's hundreds

[00:40:22] of things I saved a bunch of them so we got plenty

[00:40:24] of stock here we could do another hundred episodes

[00:40:26] we have to just have to live to your hundred

[00:40:28] that's all you need you need another

[00:40:30] few lives to buy a few of my life from somewhere

[00:40:32] cool well I like that as I say

[00:40:34] popular segment let us know

[00:40:36] when we finally release this podcast

[00:40:38] if you do like it you want more

[00:40:40] look I was fascinated to hear

[00:40:42] your interpretation

[00:40:44] or what you got from those

[00:40:46] four lines because it was completely

[00:40:48] different to mine

[00:40:50] but it was unique to you

[00:40:52] and you gave me

[00:40:54] new information well it's good

[00:40:56] if men ripen when they turn towards the sun on the

[00:40:58] battlefield it's good it's good

[00:41:00] fertilizer anyway right so it's all about the

[00:41:02] cyclo life

[00:41:04] oh that's a bad one

[00:41:06] it's not dig too far no no sorry

[00:41:08] I'll cut it there

[00:41:10] the me and him podcast

[00:41:14] hey son we haven't got time to do this

[00:41:16] fully at the moment but I was

[00:41:18] really surprised at the commonality

[00:41:20] of our experiences

[00:41:22] in neighbor street school

[00:41:24] too big a topic to discuss now

[00:41:26] will throw to the future

[00:41:28] and I was amazed

[00:41:30] at our different reactions

[00:41:32] to the last four lines

[00:41:34] of that short poem that I wrote

[00:41:36] again

[00:41:38] very informative and educational

[00:41:40] yeah and I think that's what this is all about

[00:41:42] it's about

[00:41:44] sharing some ideas

[00:41:46] sharing some creative expression

[00:41:48] sharing different takes on

[00:41:50] that way we see things

[00:41:52] and obviously my larger

[00:41:54] agenda here outside of

[00:41:56] obviously doing this with you is to

[00:41:58] affect some sort of positive change

[00:42:00] with other men

[00:42:02] fathers sons

[00:42:04] who are listening and thinking

[00:42:06] about their own lives

[00:42:08] their own relationships their history

[00:42:10] and maybe what they've had to work through

[00:42:12] and where they've come

[00:42:14] I really feel like

[00:42:16] for me now the next step

[00:42:18] is to

[00:42:20] be more of service to others

[00:42:22] than I've been

[00:42:24] for the first part of my life

[00:42:26] and I'm hoping that together we can

[00:42:28] make that small dent in the universe

[00:42:30] but in terms of what I got out

[00:42:32] today's discussion

[00:42:34] I think just you explaining and putting detail

[00:42:36] to the living arrangements

[00:42:38] from grandma and granddad

[00:42:40] and just

[00:42:42] the actual struggle

[00:42:44] of just the basic needs

[00:42:46] of survival and just where we are today

[00:42:48] and just how lucky

[00:42:50] and how grateful

[00:42:52] really all of us should be

[00:42:54] just to have a heated

[00:42:56] turn on or a wash machine to go

[00:42:58] while you're running out the door to run some errands

[00:43:00] you know it's been such

[00:43:02] a small period of time

[00:43:04] in the scheme of things

[00:43:06] but there's been such massive improvements

[00:43:08] in our quality of life and I just don't want to

[00:43:10] ever take that for granted

[00:43:12] any final words of wisdom dad?

[00:43:16] we older people

[00:43:18] are meant to be fonts of wisdom

[00:43:20] that's a misconception

[00:43:22] you proclaim to be that's for sure

[00:43:24] no, no I don't

[00:43:26] I'm still a learner

[00:43:28] I'm still that kid

[00:43:30] in the primers

[00:43:32] you know

[00:43:34] 3, 4, 5 years old

[00:43:36] yes I've learned a lot more than

[00:43:38] you have because of my age

[00:43:40] and

[00:43:42] much of it has been negative

[00:43:44] I must say

[00:43:46] but I'm continually looking forward

[00:43:48] and the joy of my

[00:43:50] grandchildren who are now

[00:43:52] young adults

[00:43:54] the energy that they bring

[00:43:56] and the ideas

[00:43:58] it's wonderful

[00:44:00] 2 of my grandchildren took me out

[00:44:02] as their shout for my birthday

[00:44:04] they didn't have to do this

[00:44:06] I was in the jazz club last night

[00:44:08] and it was in a

[00:44:10] kind of a cellar

[00:44:12] in the CBD

[00:44:14] which had been a venue

[00:44:16] of that kind for about 30 years

[00:44:18] and it turned out that it wasn't actually jazz

[00:44:20] the artists who were performing

[00:44:22] were doing BB King

[00:44:24] and

[00:44:26] Edda James

[00:44:28] and it was a stunning evening

[00:44:30] and I was there with

[00:44:32] my 2 grandchildren

[00:44:34] it was just amazing

[00:44:36] so your words of wisdom are

[00:44:38] keep learning, stay curious

[00:44:40] be open to new experiences

[00:44:42] live life to the full

[00:44:44] in the sense that a child does

[00:44:46] where everything is new

[00:44:48] and everything is exciting

[00:44:50] I think that's a nice way to wrap it up

[00:44:52] be nice chatting

[00:44:54] bye bye