Ep4: Awkward Dad

[00:00:00] Me and Him Podcast

[00:00:32] I get less sleep than half the people on the planet.

[00:01:02] I consider myself to be a partial failure.

[00:01:09] Only one arm push-up that I'm interested in.

[00:01:15] He's raising this glass of wine to my mouth.

[00:01:22] Here we are, episode 4.

[00:01:26] We're still doing a few recordings because when we launched this,

[00:01:30] the idea is to launch and have them coming out weekly.

[00:01:34] So we haven't actually done anything except put it,

[00:01:37] I've put it to my Facebook group and I've had a few people listen.

[00:01:40] In fact, 30 people have listened, Dad.

[00:01:42] Did you know that?

[00:01:43] Thirty whole people.

[00:01:44] Wow, that many.

[00:01:45] We're affecting the world.

[00:01:46] It's half the world's population, isn't it?

[00:01:48] Well, we'll give it another couple of years

[00:01:50] and see how things are going.

[00:01:52] But no, it's actually 33 when I last looked.

[00:01:55] Of course, I'm getting updates every four minutes.

[00:01:57] Wow.

[00:01:58] I'm so excited.

[00:02:00] I'm so impressed by statistics.

[00:02:03] What I was hoping is that people would listen

[00:02:05] and give us a bit of feedback, right?

[00:02:06] Just so they say that's a pile of shit.

[00:02:09] Or they'll go, hey, that was actually quite amusing.

[00:02:11] Or, that was good, but could you just tweak this bit,

[00:02:14] change that, add this?

[00:02:16] Nothing yet.

[00:02:17] And of course, when they offer their suggestions,

[00:02:20] we will do just the opposite.

[00:02:22] Well, it depends who's talking, right?

[00:02:24] Like, yes, we'll take it under advisement definitely.

[00:02:27] And I guess when this does come out and it is live

[00:02:30] on different podcasting platforms,

[00:02:33] we will put an email account there

[00:02:36] for people to give us our feedback

[00:02:37] because to be honest, Dad, I don't know about you.

[00:02:39] Whilst we're going to explore the tapestry of our lives

[00:02:43] and traumas and all the rest of it and good times,

[00:02:47] I am kind of interested to see who out there

[00:02:50] as a, he's in a similar situation maybe as a young male

[00:02:55] or a middle-aged male or a child of a despondent father

[00:02:58] or distant father.

[00:02:59] I'm kind of interested to connect with a few people

[00:03:01] through doing something like this.

[00:03:03] Well, that's the marketing man in your son

[00:03:05] and you're a very good marketing man.

[00:03:06] No, it's more the messaging man

[00:03:08] because I think, I heard once at a conference,

[00:03:11] now this is very much a catchphrase,

[00:03:13] but you run with me here,

[00:03:15] that if you're not making a million dollars,

[00:03:17] you're not making a difference.

[00:03:20] I heard that once, right?

[00:03:22] And the context of it was money is a feedback loop

[00:03:26] for needs being satiated, things being met,

[00:03:30] and what happened-

[00:03:31] You've been listening to the wrong gurus.

[00:03:33] Well, I listened to a lot of gurus, to be honest with you.

[00:03:35] And that was just one thing that struck me.

[00:03:37] Except me.

[00:03:39] I listened.

[00:03:40] She take heed to different things.

[00:03:43] Let's say I watch a ghast.

[00:03:47] What the hell is going on over there?

[00:03:50] No, look, just on-

[00:03:51] But at the moment you're watching a ghost.

[00:03:53] We still got to fix that lighting, don't we?

[00:03:57] The point I'm making, I guess,

[00:03:59] is that why it's important to me isn't just,

[00:04:02] hey, you know, want people to listen

[00:04:04] and will be famous because this ain't going to happen.

[00:04:08] No, that's all bullshit.

[00:04:10] We're doing this to have a proper discourse.

[00:04:14] Yes, but because of the person I am,

[00:04:17] I like to share what I'm learning with others,

[00:04:19] and part of this is a way to vocalize some of the lessons,

[00:04:23] to think more deeply around certain topics

[00:04:26] around male health and relationships, et cetera,

[00:04:30] male relationships, and have others-

[00:04:33] have it help in some small way others,

[00:04:35] or at least even encourage people to open up a little bit, maybe.

[00:04:39] Yes, all worthwhile ambitions,

[00:04:42] but that's not the actual impetus which caused us to do it.

[00:04:48] We just wanted to catch us some stuff before you died, basically.

[00:04:51] Let's focus on us,

[00:04:54] and if our traumatic relationship resonates with anyone else,

[00:05:01] well, that's either a good or a bad thing.

[00:05:04] Hopefully good.

[00:05:05] All right, let's get started.

[00:05:11] So we've been taking a little trip down memory lane, I guess.

[00:05:16] It's been more of just-

[00:05:18] I guess focusing on your history growing up.

[00:05:21] I've been learning a thing or two about the all-stares circumstances,

[00:05:24] I guess, of Ditta, which is the great granddad and granddad and the rest.

[00:05:31] And then we shared a very similar experience at Napier Street,

[00:05:34] Slash Reems Bay High School.

[00:05:36] I don't know how maybe if we had our own-

[00:05:39] my son go one of those schools, he might be down the same story,

[00:05:42] you know, maybe something's never changed.

[00:05:44] Oh no, God, we wouldn't-

[00:05:46] wish that I'm on the Millennium.

[00:05:48] Totally, I got the hell out of dodge because of that situation,

[00:05:51] you know, I was like, all right, I'm gone, bye New Zealand.

[00:05:54] I came to this wonderful country I live in now, Australia.

[00:05:57] And so, but just going back to that,

[00:06:01] I'm finding it really interesting just you getting through primary,

[00:06:06] moving into your young adult life.

[00:06:08] I don't know a lot about that.

[00:06:09] I know a little bit about when you had a few girlfriends at uni

[00:06:11] before you met mum and then obviously more after that.

[00:06:14] So fill me in.

[00:06:15] Tell me a little bit more about the school time stuff that went on with it for you.

[00:06:20] I see.

[00:06:21] So you're calling me some kind of a rua, aren't you?

[00:06:24] Some kind of what?

[00:06:25] A womanizer.

[00:06:27] A womanizer.

[00:06:28] Well, no, yeah, you told me about a couple of girlfriends,

[00:06:31] you know, before you met mum and everything.

[00:06:33] I was like, okay, so I understand a little bit of that,

[00:06:35] but I don't really know much before that.

[00:06:37] All right, I'll tell you about the transition period.

[00:06:39] In the schooling system in New Zealand at that point in time in the 50s,

[00:06:45] there was the slum school that I went to

[00:06:47] which went up to what was called Standard 6.

[00:06:50] And you left there about 12 to 13.

[00:06:54] Unless you were retarded and you left there about 18.

[00:06:58] No, that's a sight there.

[00:06:59] All right.

[00:07:00] Yes, I am.

[00:07:01] I'm sorry.

[00:07:02] No.

[00:07:03] All right, continue from retarded.

[00:07:05] Hey, we're all retarded in one way or another.

[00:07:11] I'll take that one.

[00:07:12] We've got to be fair about this.

[00:07:14] Okay, in the modern parlance, challenged in some dimension.

[00:07:19] Is that acceptable?

[00:07:21] That's perfect.

[00:07:23] Correct.

[00:07:24] We can move on.

[00:07:26] I didn't know that in the suburbs, there were transitional schools

[00:07:30] where, and I'm harking back to the system in New Zealand in the 50s,

[00:07:35] you stopped at Standard 4 and then you had two years of what was called

[00:07:40] intermediate to prepare you for high school,

[00:07:43] which typically you started at age 13.

[00:07:46] So just to background you in Australian schools here,

[00:07:49] because that's where my kids went,

[00:07:50] you goes up to what they call years instead of standards,

[00:07:53] year six and then you go to high school.

[00:07:55] So intermediate took five and six by the sounds of things

[00:07:59] and carved them off to a different school.

[00:08:02] That's correct.

[00:08:03] And so my dad was in, he started working as a laborer

[00:08:08] for a large construction firm

[00:08:10] and he worked his way up to be a foreman

[00:08:12] and his heroes were architects and engineers.

[00:08:16] And that's what he saw his son becoming.

[00:08:20] Oh, okay.

[00:08:21] As a measure of success.

[00:08:23] So they took me along to Mount Roscoe Grammar

[00:08:28] towards the end of the year before I started

[00:08:33] and I started, I was part of the class of 57

[00:08:36] and I was enrolled in metal work and woodworking and so forth.

[00:08:43] Things which were largely foreign to me,

[00:08:46] but what my salvation was and none of us knew

[00:08:50] was a letter which came to my parents before,

[00:08:54] just before December in 1956,

[00:09:00] requesting my attendance at the school

[00:09:04] for a test of some kind.

[00:09:08] And it transpired that the entire intake for 1957,

[00:09:14] regardless of what they were studying,

[00:09:16] had to sit a form of examination

[00:09:19] and it was all cold.

[00:09:20] We knew nothing about it.

[00:09:21] We had no opportunity to prepare for it.

[00:09:24] So my parents took me along and I went and I did it

[00:09:28] and then the very first day of school,

[00:09:31] I found myself in the top academic stream for that year

[00:09:36] studying English of course, which was a mandatory subject

[00:09:40] and thank God it was.

[00:09:42] I love the English language so much.

[00:09:44] That's very hard for the Kiwis, bro.

[00:09:47] Speaking the Queen's English, bro.

[00:09:49] Don't know.

[00:09:51] I have no idea how to speak the language.

[00:09:55] Can you hear me?

[00:09:56] I'm a bit of Russian as well, have you?

[00:09:58] No, I rushed that bit.

[00:10:02] And so I was English, physics, chemistry, mathematics and French.

[00:10:09] The intake turned out for that class,

[00:10:13] turned out to be about 56 kids

[00:10:15] so they had to do a bit of a culling

[00:10:17] and since I wasn't doing French and Latin

[00:10:21] I was put down into the next academic level

[00:10:25] which was one level below.

[00:10:28] Just imagine the career opportunities you missed out on

[00:10:31] not doing French and Latin.

[00:10:33] I mean, such a show.

[00:10:34] Well no, no, I did French

[00:10:36] and I've got some French stories for you

[00:10:38] but we'll deal with them later.

[00:10:40] But what was interesting, son,

[00:10:42] is I had such a sheltered existence

[00:10:45] as this frightened little only child.

[00:10:48] I didn't know what mathematics was,

[00:10:51] I didn't know what physics was,

[00:10:53] I didn't know what chemistry was

[00:10:55] and it was the result of that bloody test

[00:10:58] which streamed me into science

[00:11:00] which I was a natural for

[00:11:02] and I never knew anything about it.

[00:11:05] Well, I guess a lot of kids don't know physics and chemistry

[00:11:08] that's where you go to school, right?

[00:11:10] You learn about what those things are.

[00:11:12] I ended up being very good at it

[00:11:14] because you see, I was always creative

[00:11:16] prior to what I've just discussed with you

[00:11:20] prior to that December and its test

[00:11:23] and the people at the Napier Street School

[00:11:27] had identified that I was very good

[00:11:30] with painting and the art.

[00:11:33] Oh, okay, you got the artist's

[00:11:35] mathematician sort of link going on.

[00:11:38] So they, well, let's use the word

[00:11:42] encouraged in inverted commas.

[00:11:45] My parents to take me to

[00:11:47] an intermediate school on the weekends

[00:11:51] where I could paint and do creative things.

[00:11:55] Wow.

[00:11:56] So it was there from a very early age

[00:11:59] and again, I didn't know I had it.

[00:12:01] Well, most of us don't as kids, right?

[00:12:03] We're just trying to express ourselves,

[00:12:05] trying to find what fits.

[00:12:06] A lot of things don't fit

[00:12:08] and then we sometimes parents forces into those areas

[00:12:10] that don't fit and creates all this.

[00:12:12] So I ended up not through any design of my own

[00:12:17] or my parents being this curious mix

[00:12:20] of highly creative and highly academic,

[00:12:24] especially in the sciences.

[00:12:26] No, no, don't be so silly.

[00:12:29] Well, there is definitely a link though

[00:12:31] between genius and, you know,

[00:12:33] mathematicians and musical ability.

[00:12:35] No, let's not use the word genius.

[00:12:37] Yes, I'm not saying that it's you.

[00:12:39] There is a plurality of talents

[00:12:43] in every one of us

[00:12:45] and sometimes they get nurtured

[00:12:47] and sometimes they don't.

[00:12:49] Exactly.

[00:12:50] No human being is just an engineer from birth

[00:12:54] or a buddy artist from birth.

[00:12:56] You know, we're all a mixture of things.

[00:13:00] We've still got to create, right?

[00:13:02] We've got to create whether we're creating drawings

[00:13:04] and buildings or creating art and wonderful theater.

[00:13:07] Exactly.

[00:13:08] We've got to create something.

[00:13:09] So how did those two things come together

[00:13:10] with regards to your schooling?

[00:13:12] Did they come together or did you lose one?

[00:13:14] There was an art class, by the way,

[00:13:16] which was an elective

[00:13:18] and I also did it as well as all the other stuff.

[00:13:21] But, you know, as you go through life,

[00:13:24] certain things swamp other things.

[00:13:26] Sure.

[00:13:27] And the creative dimension came out

[00:13:30] much later on when your mother and I

[00:13:33] were sitting down as newlyweds

[00:13:37] and dealing with bureaucracy.

[00:13:40] She had the discipline to write

[00:13:43] in the appropriate manner.

[00:13:46] And I came up with the creative ideas

[00:13:48] and the two of us actually pulled off things

[00:13:52] that should not normally have happened.

[00:13:55] Yeah, well, I guess there is a high creative gene

[00:13:59] you have.

[00:14:01] I would suggest all of us.

[00:14:03] I suggest most people have it.

[00:14:05] It's just like you're saying it's about exercise in the muscle.

[00:14:07] You know, you either pushed one area

[00:14:09] and you sort of think,

[00:14:10] this is what I'm at all about

[00:14:11] and you do a lot of experience in that area,

[00:14:13] be it an engineer, whatever.

[00:14:15] Or you're pushed in,

[00:14:17] or you can find your finesse and talents

[00:14:20] and grow what you want to express down the line.

[00:14:24] But it's like, I agree with you.

[00:14:26] We're always a bit of all of the above.

[00:14:29] Yeah, we are.

[00:14:30] And while we're on that subject,

[00:14:32] I just want to bring up intuition.

[00:14:35] I've learned that it's not just women

[00:14:39] who have intuition.

[00:14:41] Men have intuition too.

[00:14:43] We're just better at blocking it.

[00:14:45] We are because we believe in our God,

[00:14:49] which is logic.

[00:14:50] Yes, yes.

[00:14:51] You can work it out.

[00:14:53] Yeah, I mean, these days as a much older being,

[00:14:58] when the little voice says,

[00:15:01] oh, I think this is the right idea

[00:15:04] and my logic says, that's a lot of crap.

[00:15:08] I now take the little voices advice more often

[00:15:13] than I used to,

[00:15:15] because for much of my young man's life,

[00:15:19] I didn't take it at all.

[00:15:22] And I tripped up so many times,

[00:15:25] I've lost count.

[00:15:27] Well, I think that's a journey common to many of us.

[00:15:30] Just the thinking growing up in a thinking world

[00:15:34] and believing you can work it all out

[00:15:36] if you just think harder and better and longer and faster.

[00:15:40] But it's such a male thing.

[00:15:42] I mean, women come to the same thing.

[00:15:46] I know a couple of overthinkers,

[00:15:48] but you're right, the intuition level is stronger.

[00:15:51] I think it's because of connection to biology,

[00:15:53] connection to the earth and childbearing

[00:15:55] and there's something that have more of a grounding.

[00:15:57] I think it is very genetic.

[00:15:59] And look at the danger of being labeled sexist

[00:16:02] by some of the so-called open-minded people out there.

[00:16:05] Yep, I'm sexist.

[00:16:07] There is a difference between the two.

[00:16:10] The two sexes are there for a particular reason

[00:16:14] and that is to procreate and move the species forward

[00:16:19] in terms of numbers.

[00:16:21] Experimentate.

[00:16:23] We're talking about playtime activities there.

[00:16:29] Oh, where we going with that one?

[00:16:31] All right.

[00:16:32] So interesting.

[00:16:34] Interesting.

[00:16:35] Thanks for filling me in on that.

[00:16:37] We may just move it along a little bit here

[00:16:41] to something that I'm not actually quite sure of,

[00:16:44] but we'll move anyway.

[00:16:47] Well, if you're not sure, how the hell can I be?

[00:16:49] I don't know where we're going.

[00:16:51] What is happening here?

[00:16:52] Who am I?

[00:16:53] All right.

[00:16:54] You asked the questions and then...

[00:16:56] Yeah, and then I move on.

[00:16:59] Meet in him podcast.

[00:17:02] So by the sounds of things you jumped straight through

[00:17:06] from intermediate into high school,

[00:17:09] I on the other hand went to intermediate

[00:17:11] and it was...

[00:17:13] It's like a prep school for high school.

[00:17:16] I don't understand why I had to leave one school.

[00:17:18] Go to a different school,

[00:17:20] which was, maybe not too far away, thankfully,

[00:17:22] and then go to a third school.

[00:17:25] It seemed like a lot of jumping around.

[00:17:27] I don't know how much I benefited from those two extra years

[00:17:29] of that different school.

[00:17:30] Whether it prepped me or not, maybe it did.

[00:17:32] But I do understand the concept of it

[00:17:35] sort of adjusting you to that higher level of learning.

[00:17:39] So what was the like jumping straight in there from...

[00:17:42] What was it?

[00:17:43] Stand at six, you said?

[00:17:44] Yeah.

[00:17:45] Straight into high school.

[00:17:47] We see something I didn't know any better.

[00:17:49] I was just a 13-year-old kid.

[00:17:51] None of us at that age.

[00:17:53] We think we did.

[00:17:54] And I had very little interaction with my peer group

[00:18:00] because things were very austere in the middle of the cities.

[00:18:04] And there weren't many kids around anyway,

[00:18:07] and there were no bloody playgrounds, etc.

[00:18:10] So I went in cold.

[00:18:12] Sounds like the ghetto.

[00:18:13] Probably was, wasn't it really?

[00:18:15] It was a bit of a ghetto.

[00:18:17] Relative to the circumstances of the time,

[00:18:21] yes.

[00:18:22] That's a very good...

[00:18:26] You called it slum earlier.

[00:18:28] So I guess, you know...

[00:18:30] No, it was the slums.

[00:18:32] There are no two ways about it.

[00:18:34] The suburbs where everybody wanted to be.

[00:18:37] The fancy people.

[00:18:38] Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:39] No, no.

[00:18:40] I mean everybody wanted to be because

[00:18:43] they'd bulldozed the market gardens

[00:18:48] and they'd created places out in the fresh air and the sunshine.

[00:18:54] You didn't have that in the city.

[00:18:56] Okay.

[00:18:57] There were two components.

[00:18:59] One was the strangeness of it,

[00:19:02] and the other which I subsequently learned

[00:19:06] as a teenager, young teenager,

[00:19:10] eventually coming into hubescence

[00:19:15] and becoming hormonal as happens to all of us.

[00:19:19] Around that 13-year-old age,

[00:19:21] I think mine was 12 when I started to think along those lines.

[00:19:25] Well, I was a little bit older, but never mind.

[00:19:27] You build your world if you don't have brothers and sisters

[00:19:31] based on the only paradigm you've got.

[00:19:35] Right.

[00:19:36] You know you're completely different to your parents.

[00:19:39] Well, hopefully, right?

[00:19:41] I mean some people I guess like to be like them

[00:19:43] if you don't like what they're doing,

[00:19:45] maybe you don't want to be like them.

[00:19:47] Well, it's not just that.

[00:19:49] Although I didn't like what they were doing to each other.

[00:19:52] You don't have any other benchmarks.

[00:19:55] Sure.

[00:19:56] And so you generate your own and you believe

[00:20:01] that all other kids are like you.

[00:20:04] So then you create in your mind.

[00:20:07] Yeah, so I mean I had great difficulty adjusting

[00:20:11] to my peer group because I thought they were interested

[00:20:15] in life, death, the universe, etc. as I was.

[00:20:19] It's a subject of this point.

[00:20:21] But they weren't.

[00:20:22] They just wanted to party and get down

[00:20:25] and hump away and be happy.

[00:20:27] Right.

[00:20:28] Young, dumb and full of fun.

[00:20:30] I had similar drives.

[00:20:32] Right.

[00:20:33] But my success rate amongst the gorgeous young ladies

[00:20:38] who showed interest was rather low

[00:20:42] because I had a different spectrum of intellectual interest.

[00:20:46] Can I just say something here?

[00:20:48] You've shown me some of these photos of you as around that age.

[00:20:51] Like, you know, maybe you were 17, 19, 20, whatever.

[00:20:55] Yeah, the earliest one.

[00:20:56] Oh my God, you're like James Dean,

[00:20:58] my absolute studly looking character.

[00:21:00] I thought I looked good in some of my younger shots.

[00:21:02] I was like, God damn, I got those dalmatians.

[00:21:05] Son, I didn't know it.

[00:21:07] I know.

[00:21:08] I know.

[00:21:09] The problem is, I did.

[00:21:10] It didn't help me either.

[00:21:12] Yeah.

[00:21:13] I mean, it's only looking back with the benefits of time

[00:21:19] I realized how screwed up I was.

[00:21:21] Well, how lucky you were to have those looks too, right?

[00:21:24] Oh no.

[00:21:25] But I didn't know I was bloody good looking then.

[00:21:28] So can I ask you a serious question then?

[00:21:30] Yeah, sure.

[00:21:31] Because it's one thing to be blessed with good genes

[00:21:34] and, you know, and to be of that age where these opportunities are available to you.

[00:21:39] It's another thing to be able to be courageous enough

[00:21:42] and self assured enough and integrated enough to make approaches

[00:21:45] and be confident in yourself and all the rest of things

[00:21:48] that one would hope our sons have, you know, that anyone has.

[00:21:52] You didn't have that.

[00:21:54] But you did have a dad at home.

[00:21:56] But you obviously didn't get that lesson from him or anyone else.

[00:22:00] I couldn't communicate with my parents on the level that I was at

[00:22:06] because by the age of nine or 10, I was so well read.

[00:22:12] Again, I had a loneliness because I was an only child

[00:22:16] and not because, you know, I had any foreknowledge

[00:22:21] that reading a lot would be good.

[00:22:23] Well, trying to comfort and solace in absorbing what escape is.

[00:22:27] Well, what else did you do as a...

[00:22:30] Especially the only child.

[00:22:33] Yeah, dad, I hear you.

[00:22:35] Those days all you had was books.

[00:22:40] You could have taken a stick and a wheel and gone down the road.

[00:22:45] I don't know that had been done before.

[00:22:48] I don't need to reinvent the wheel.

[00:22:52] Okay, sorry. I was just taking the piss.

[00:22:55] So that's on a serious note.

[00:22:57] Well deserved, son. Well deserved.

[00:22:59] You had to read, right? You had to read.

[00:23:01] That was your entertainment.

[00:23:02] So you became so, I guess not so worldly, but you became more worldly.

[00:23:07] What then?

[00:23:08] Not so much that.

[00:23:10] I became...

[00:23:11] Or literally well read.

[00:23:13] It fostered my creative dimension because I drew a lot as well.

[00:23:19] But I didn't know at the time what a gift it was for my commander of the English language,

[00:23:28] which I absolutely adore and have revered for the rest of my life.

[00:23:35] It's definitely not pernicious.

[00:23:37] Or pernicious it is.

[00:23:39] Sorry, that's my word at the moment.

[00:23:41] I'm practicing harmful.

[00:23:43] Yeah, it's anyway.

[00:23:45] Sorry, keep going. I'm just practicing my...

[00:23:47] I was happy watching you fall into your own trap.

[00:23:53] Sorry.

[00:23:54] All righty.

[00:23:55] So you were well read, but let me bring that to what we chatted about offline,

[00:24:01] which was the whole getting to know, picking up women, having...

[00:24:06] Getting a girlfriend.

[00:24:08] You said you didn't make it with the ladies.

[00:24:11] But you look like you were James Dean,

[00:24:13] but you weren't able to get it across the line sometimes.

[00:24:17] What was your handicap?

[00:24:19] Yeah, but you see James Dean, until he becomes a star, doesn't see himself in the mirror as a star.

[00:24:28] He just sees him as someone with a few pimples which need to be squeezed, etc.

[00:24:36] Come on, let's get to the brutal reality of it.

[00:24:39] Yeah, we all look at ourselves differently than others look at us, I guess.

[00:24:42] And that's why fame is so hard to handle for so many people, I guess.

[00:24:46] I can relate.

[00:24:47] Well, sorry, I can't relate to that from experience, but I can...

[00:24:50] Well, you're after the segment, Dad. You never know.

[00:24:52] I can't.

[00:24:53] No, hang on, son. Let's get it.

[00:24:56] Let's not jump too far.

[00:24:58] So how did...

[00:25:00] I guess what I'm trying to get to is how did you find that adjustment?

[00:25:04] How did you go? Like overall?

[00:25:07] It was very difficult, son, because I didn't know.

[00:25:10] And I continued not to know.

[00:25:13] Even after I was married to your mother, it was very beautiful girl.

[00:25:20] I had difficulty at work.

[00:25:24] The other guys would go to the pub and they wouldn't ask me to join them.

[00:25:29] And I didn't know why, because we worked together.

[00:25:33] You're out of the loop.

[00:25:35] But it was because I wasn't like them.

[00:25:38] I couldn't relate on that level, and I didn't understand

[00:25:42] I was the one who was dysfunctional.

[00:25:45] Okay, they might have been a bit crude and rude and so forth.

[00:25:50] But everyone still wants to belong, right?

[00:25:52] Oh, you always need to feel accepted by your peer group.

[00:25:58] Otherwise, you can develop all sorts of problems.

[00:26:01] Yeah.

[00:26:02] Male friendships, man. That's something I've learned.

[00:26:05] Oh, fuck, tell me about it, pal.

[00:26:08] Yeah.

[00:26:09] I've worked hard on that.

[00:26:12] And I didn't know I had a fractured psychology.

[00:26:16] There were no such things as therapists those days.

[00:26:20] All that bullshit, no one believed in it.

[00:26:22] You had to work it out with a bottle really, as any...

[00:26:24] Sorry, no disrespect to the current therapists.

[00:26:27] I'm talking about the 50s.

[00:26:29] Yeah, totally.

[00:26:30] Okay, let's get this in perspective.

[00:26:33] It probably took me 20 to 30 years to realign myself.

[00:26:40] And I must say the significant women in my life helped me enormously.

[00:26:47] I owe them sincerely a huge debt.

[00:26:51] Helped you with what?

[00:26:54] To become the man I am today.

[00:26:56] Someone whom people like who's sociable, who's hospitable.

[00:27:00] I've always been hospitable, but it didn't know how to go about it.

[00:27:03] Maybe also doing that for with the right motivations, you know, the right intent.

[00:27:09] Well, it's only when you know what the right motivations are that you can exercise them.

[00:27:15] Yeah, totally.

[00:27:16] If you don't know, you have to be trained somehow.

[00:27:20] You know, I'll just share one quick thing.

[00:27:23] I really get that message.

[00:27:25] I really understand that because I remember thinking I just wanted to be well respected for my narrative expertise.

[00:27:34] I want to be one of the best in my industry.

[00:27:36] I wanted to make a difference, you know, and all the rest.

[00:27:41] And so I did that and I wrote a book and I did speeches and created events and businesses and all that sort of stuff.

[00:27:48] Can I interrupt you, son?

[00:27:49] No.

[00:27:50] Those are very positive drivers.

[00:27:52] And I admire you for that.

[00:27:54] Okay, well, thank you.

[00:27:56] Here's the thing though and here's the lesson.

[00:27:58] This was a lesson I learned in I think late 20s, maybe very early 30s was that why I was doing that turned out to be it wasn't so much what I was doing was bad.

[00:28:09] But the motivation behind what I was doing was to complete something in myself to fill more hole.

[00:28:16] I had grown up needing to not perform but also to get noticed in order to be recognized.

[00:28:25] Yeah, I had to be recognized to feel like I was loved to feel like I was worthy enough and all the rest of it right.

[00:28:31] It was just a product of the dynamic of the upbringing and you know what have you everyone has their thing.

[00:28:37] But it's a core it's a core need son.

[00:28:39] It's a core need.

[00:28:40] So I had gone on this mission to be the best at this be the best at that, like all young men do I guess.

[00:28:46] But dad I ended up on stage, you know, I'd signed a couple of books for people.

[00:28:51] I was doing all these talks.

[00:28:53] I was sort of one of the organizers of this whole big event hundreds of people there.

[00:28:57] And I remember thinking to myself, why do I feel so goddamn empty?

[00:29:02] Like the whole of the grand canyon has opened up within me and I am just.

[00:29:08] I'm nothing.

[00:29:09] I mean, yeah, and I was so angry with myself going, I've got everything I wanted.

[00:29:16] I achieved it.

[00:29:17] I'm here.

[00:29:18] Why am I so unhappy?

[00:29:20] And it just pissed me off.

[00:29:23] It pissed me off.

[00:29:24] And then I realized it took me by the way a number of weeks maybe months, maybe even a year or two.

[00:29:29] I can't remember now is that long ago but I finally learn.

[00:29:33] You better read your own book again.

[00:29:35] That wasn't that book.

[00:29:37] It was a book about the industry I was in.

[00:29:39] But there was a start of my second book but I learned that my motivation was all wrong.

[00:29:47] Not what I was doing.

[00:29:49] So the way I'm not liking it is like an iceberg.

[00:29:52] So the tip of the iceberg showing above the water and that's what you call your talent.

[00:29:57] Right?

[00:29:58] It's showing above the water and everyone goes, hey look at Jason.

[00:30:00] He's such a good speaker, such a good promoter.

[00:30:01] He's so good with people and this and that and what have you.

[00:30:03] And I'm like, yeah, look at me.

[00:30:04] I'm awesome.

[00:30:05] And then underneath it though, underneath this iceberg is actually a dysfunction.

[00:30:13] I don't feel worthy enough.

[00:30:14] I don't feel secure enough.

[00:30:16] It's a beautiful metaphor son.

[00:30:19] Every one of us can see the picture in our minds.

[00:30:22] So you know what was beautiful about that though?

[00:30:25] When I understood when I actually saw it in my own mind that that talent I got is good.

[00:30:30] It helps people.

[00:30:31] I shouldn't like, I don't need to, you know, dismantle it.

[00:30:35] But when I understood that below what was driving this talent and I was, you know, in a way I'm fortunate to have the talent, but it was only because I had to compensate for something I felt wasn't in my life.

[00:30:45] When soon as I saw the bottom of that iceberg and realized that, oh shit, I don't, I can just do this because I want to do it.

[00:30:51] I can just speak to people and because I'm interested in them and be of service.

[00:30:55] I don't have to do to fill something in me.

[00:30:57] Oh my God.

[00:30:59] That's where I went.

[00:31:01] I think I just went up one level or maybe one part of one level because I let go of this void within me.

[00:31:09] I'm not saying completely, but it was such a visceral moment that I had no choice but to digest that lesson.

[00:31:18] You realize, son, one thing which has really astounded me is that when I went through the passage that you went through and I realized that being of service to people was worthwhile both for them and for me.

[00:31:35] Much later on, I suddenly found out that independently of me whatsoever, my son, you, it turned out to be a major talent in hospitality.

[00:31:47] My daughter, your elder sister has turned out to have a hugely significant global position in hospitality and my youngest son has spent almost 30 years in the hospital.

[00:32:04] I wonder whether that has been a similar driver for all of us.

[00:32:11] Maybe, maybe.

[00:32:13] I mean it's hard to know.

[00:32:16] Look, to be honest when it all came down to it, for me it was always about sharing good energy and love and help.

[00:32:27] The way I used to train people around being hospitable and there was a lot of basics to looking someone in the eyes remembering their name and all the rest of it.

[00:32:36] But it was about making them take them one level up in terms of their energy so when they leave that place and they have interactions with anyone outside of our doors,

[00:32:46] those actions are more positive and more enlightened and higher energy.

[00:32:51] And then when I go back to their kids, they feel better in their wives and the hugging because we were like almost the sermons on the mound getting wasted with helping them to dance around.

[00:33:04] Oh, you weren't Penny Costell were you?

[00:33:07] No disrespect to Chris a little by the way.

[00:33:10] Slipped a little card in their pocket.

[00:33:12] Hey, if you're up or down give me a call.

[00:33:14] No, look not quite that but yes you do have a responsibility slash you are guilty as charged getting us involved to some degree in hospitality industry.

[00:33:23] And I think we should park that and move on.

[00:33:32] Well, some really interesting perspective there and it's brought to mind something for me that I think may have shared with you before.

[00:33:41] I don't quite remember but it's another indelible memory in my mind and I wanted to I wanted to explain it to you and then get you to talk about what I guess the insight that I had.

[00:33:55] So let me just paint it this way.

[00:33:57] I drew a lot like you as a kid.

[00:33:59] I just drew lots of pictures always trying to get things creatively on paper.

[00:34:03] I was no I wasn't a great artist.

[00:34:05] I think you were better than I was seeing some of your work when you were younger.

[00:34:09] But I drew I had to draw I had to keep drawing and one thing I drew.

[00:34:13] And this expression came to mind at one point.

[00:34:16] The expression was people are as mirrors but for to see oneself.

[00:34:20] And I drew a circle of people standing around with mirrors on their faces and a dotted outline of someone in the very middle who was meant to be me.

[00:34:30] And the whole premise of it was that what I see in your eyes is who I think I am.

[00:34:36] So basically I am I am reflected in your eyes and that's how I make up my personality.

[00:34:42] And how old were you then 12 Wow Wow 12.

[00:34:49] And so we said that was me realizing that or thinking sorry that I believe falsely that my identity came from the way I was perceived in other people's eyes.

[00:35:01] And it took me I don't know 10 years maybe after that 20 years after that to go hang on a minute no I create who I am and then it shows up.

[00:35:11] And it was I oh my God.

[00:35:14] So from the element of how we perceive the world I'd be interested to sort of go back what you're talking about about how you ended up from this only child situation parents couldn't relate to your out thrown into this high school environment feeling a bit isolated.

[00:35:31] Tell me more.

[00:35:32] Well everything was new son.

[00:35:34] I'd never been there before.

[00:35:36] I'd never met any of those children some of whom have become lifelong friends.

[00:35:40] They will come from outside different areas and everything.

[00:35:42] Yeah well you see what had happened is my parents worked hard but they didn't have the money to buy a house and through the social system which existed then in Australia they're called commission houses.

[00:35:57] But in New Zealand they were called state houses and if you qualify council housing.

[00:36:03] Yeah you went into a transition zone which funny enough in the army the old army barracks beneath the zoo in Western Springs.

[00:36:13] Wow.

[00:36:14] And we used to hear the the lions roaring at night that was the housing.

[00:36:19] The arm and the arm.

[00:36:21] This was the transition.

[00:36:23] Oh wow that's interesting isn't it.

[00:36:25] It was called a transit camp and it literally was a transit camp like a boot camp moving into what you said state houses.

[00:36:33] No before.

[00:36:34] They facilitated the move from the little the hovels that we were in the slums in the slums to this intermediate form of which was a repurposed army army barracks.

[00:36:51] Another transition right.

[00:36:52] Oh Christ yeah there's lots full of them.

[00:36:56] And then as each family was allocated and I will use the word commission house for our Australian listeners a commission house.

[00:37:07] They were then transported with the small amount of worldly goods they had to one of these commission houses in the suburbs.

[00:37:18] And life began again.

[00:37:20] And for a young child sunshine fresh air places to play and neighborhood kids to play with.

[00:37:32] Horn you will was yeah I was a whole new world.

[00:37:36] So how did that did that help your transition like being socialized I guess.

[00:37:43] It was the beginning of it son but I didn't know at the time it was the beginning.

[00:37:48] And then I went to Mount Roscoe Grammar and I've already told you about the preliminary IQ tests etc etc.

[00:37:57] So we'll move on to puberty and the need as we all have because with the sexual to connect one way or another with that the opposite sex.

[00:38:12] I learned the hard way how dysfunctional I was.

[00:38:15] I was wanting to talk about things on a high intellectual level and it wasn't because I was super bright.

[00:38:21] Let's get this this nailless one you thought that that's what they'd be interested in.

[00:38:26] It was because I had been so isolated no brothers no sisters no kids to play with and so forth.

[00:38:34] Yeah I didn't know what you know any I didn't know any better.

[00:38:38] Yeah okay and I'm sorry I shouldn't say this in modern world.

[00:38:46] No it was hard both ways but it's really hard to connect and it was the beginning of a long journey which lasted about 20 years of painful through perceived rejection by my peer group.

[00:39:07] Awareness that I was the odd one out not them and something had to be done to rehabilitate me.

[00:39:17] Yeah or maybe you just need to do something different.

[00:39:20] No it was a very deeply so different maybe.

[00:39:24] I'm not because I had been so isolated I didn't know any better and I'd formed this false paradigm about how others on my peer group were and the whole thing had to be turned up on his head.

[00:39:37] And when you're that young you don't really understand what the hell's going on and you don't have any professional help.

[00:39:46] Well you don't blame yourself don't you just like must be me.

[00:39:50] Well no you just date I mean you know it's you that that's the last thing like damn it it's me.

[00:39:57] Oh my god.

[00:39:58] No but it takes a while before you know it's you.

[00:40:01] It's an aha moment maybe.

[00:40:03] And you catch all this pain and you know what's wrong with me and you know.

[00:40:08] Again it's that blind spot is you just don't know how you you don't know it's there.

[00:40:13] Fortunately those days youth suicide wasn't fashionable otherwise there would have been a candidate.

[00:40:19] Wow.

[00:40:20] Whoa there we go.

[00:40:22] That's a glib comment buddy that it's got some relevance to today.

[00:40:26] I hear you Dan.

[00:40:28] I hear and look you know where we're at with that is it these topics are so deep.

[00:40:35] And whilst we're laughing and recounting our own stories the reality is there are a lot of people out there who've had it a lot worse than us.

[00:40:43] Yes.

[00:40:44] A lot of people who have lost.

[00:40:45] And so dear to them.

[00:40:47] My heart and my compassion goes out to them because yeah for all my misdemeanors somehow God damn survived.

[00:40:55] You made it to 80.

[00:40:57] You're bloody 80 and you know hey I'm 53 I'm not doing I actually thought I wouldn't get past 24 but I think that's pretty common.

[00:41:03] A lot of people speak to the like I thought the same thing about you too.

[00:41:07] You thought about me.

[00:41:09] I thought you were going to say about yourself.

[00:41:11] God damn it was that obvious.

[00:41:13] I blame you.

[00:41:15] I was just joking.

[00:41:17] That's all right.

[00:41:20] No worries.

[00:41:21] Look it's been a really really great conversation and I've enjoyed the twists and turns.

[00:41:29] I did want to try and squeeze an email in if you're cool with that for another couple of minutes.

[00:41:35] So long as you can form one me as to which one it is.

[00:41:38] Yeah I'll form you in just one second.

[00:41:42] Emails from Dad.

[00:41:46] So emails from Dad.

[00:41:48] Now I've taken a little bit of a different tack with this one while still finding the best way to approach this segment.

[00:41:54] Obviously it says emails from Dad but the email that I've chosen to look at for this episode is the one from the song we're working on which I thought would be cool.

[00:42:05] Are you happy for me to share a little bit about that?

[00:42:07] Why not son?

[00:42:09] Okay so since the age of about 40 yes I'm an old dude.

[00:42:15] You're still that young.

[00:42:18] No well since 40 in fact 42 I picked up a guitar decided it was enough enough of me telling the story about how I never you know could how the guitar hurt too much when I learned to play it when I was 12 and you know I should have gone back to it.

[00:42:33] It never did go back to it.

[00:42:34] I was like I've been doing that for about 30 years now maybe it's just time to play the guitar.

[00:42:39] I picked up a guitar bought a chip guitar jumped on to guitar tabs and started learning and and ever since then have been playing and loving just the ability to express myself through music but also to put some songs together etc etc.

[00:42:57] John can I interrupt you for a second?

[00:42:59] Yeah please.

[00:43:00] Twice in my life because music has been very important to me I bought guitars and tried to self learn and failed.

[00:43:09] I am in awe of your ability and how you've done what you've done.

[00:43:17] Thanks I'm still a bit of a hacker to be honest with you but thank you dad but it means it means a lot because I just love being able to make beautiful sounds.

[00:43:28] I mean how lucky how cool is it being able to make beautiful sounds and then sing along to them or make words up to sing along to them.

[00:43:37] I'm no singer but to be able to be able to express myself on top of a melody that I'm making up I don't know it's kind of fun.

[00:43:46] So I use it for a bit of medicine as much as anything else but look the reason I bring it up is because I shot you a tune via email just a chord structure and then you

[00:43:57] said hey give me you know this is just to share something with you I'd love to get some lyrics because you're very good with lyrics and poetry and words and stuff.

[00:44:05] And you sent me something back which has turned into something pretty cool it's turning into something pretty cool so I thought it might be nice just to sort of just to highlight maybe some of the lyrics you gave me.

[00:44:18] We could do this over a number of episodes potentially and then potentially share the song with the listeners.

[00:44:24] Eventually I think that's a very good idea.

[00:44:27] Yeah so I come up with these chords now I haven't played them now maybe I could dub them.

[00:44:32] No it's okay.

[00:44:33] But you came back with like a love song to them and I didn't expect it.

[00:44:38] And for the benefit of any listeners out there I cannot sing so me expressing my words will sound awful but you just got to put up with it.

[00:44:54] Yeah well you're not going to sing them just explain I guess because I'll give you the first couple of verses it's why did you say that you'd always love me and then why did you take the sun from above me.

[00:45:07] Straight away those two verses kind of hit you kind of quit going oh why do you say you always love me why would you take the sun from above me.

[00:45:18] Far out this is heavy shit.

[00:45:20] So I was in straight away I was like yes that's what I needed.

[00:45:24] You failed and this is no disrespect to your son.

[00:45:30] Yes it started with the word why but it would stretch out to why you know.

[00:45:37] Can you sing it.

[00:45:38] Trying to signify.

[00:45:40] Why.

[00:45:42] No that's blues.

[00:45:45] It's it's why in terms of anguish and pain.

[00:45:48] That's my boy.

[00:45:50] Why did you say.

[00:45:54] Okay.

[00:45:55] Yeah by the way we're going to be killing cats.

[00:45:57] No one's going to listen from now on.

[00:46:00] Okay it goes on to say why did I think that you loved me.

[00:46:05] We had our moments in the sand waves in the distance hand in hand as if this was forever planned.

[00:46:14] Why did you break it.

[00:46:16] How could you take it.

[00:46:18] You tore my heart from strand to strand.

[00:46:20] Yes.

[00:46:22] Well you got me with that I was like oh yeah you know as if this was forever planned I was like perfect.

[00:46:31] So it actually worked really well with the chords and it did you've done a great job.

[00:46:36] It's coming together and I guess what I like about it you know whilst emails from dad is you

[00:46:42] send a lot of random stuff stories of concepts and poems and it's unbelievable.

[00:46:48] TMI overload but this the fact that I asked via email just sharing a piece of chord structure

[00:46:56] with you thinking I want to do more with this I don't know what to do I wasn't feeling

[00:47:00] that inspired with the lyrics he came back with this I was straight away when I tried

[00:47:04] it out I'm like oh I got a bit of and to be honest can I come be frankie I've

[00:47:08] listened to my recording that song which probably makes me sound like a complete narcissist.

[00:47:13] My recording of that song with those lyrics as I've sort of been practicing it probably 20 or 30 times

[00:47:20] in full just to really under because I thought something about it I like.

[00:47:24] Well that proves you're a musician because they're all complete narcissists.

[00:47:29] Probably. Oh my musician yay look at me go dad.

[00:47:34] Oh my god anyways so the emails from dad look thank you for the lyrics we will we'll

[00:47:41] maybe fill in the listeners on the next part of that song on the next episode and then

[00:47:47] potentially put it out at some point once we've actually released.

[00:47:50] Oh by the way we have to we have to put in a copyright disclaimer.

[00:47:54] This is copyright jealousist in Jealousich 2024. Jealous and sons.

[00:47:59] Matthew and sons. No no no no no no the copyright's very important because when it

[00:48:05] takes off and Rihanna and whoever else sorry. Oh Rihanna yeah yeah yeah yeah.

[00:48:11] We need to make the filthy shekels. Alright we'll protect ourselves.

[00:48:17] Alright don't get stealing at anyone. Alright we're going to wrap it up right now.

[00:48:22] There we are stories done for this episode I know we could talk forever but the

[00:48:28] whole idea is to speak for a little bit over a longer time and we're pretty much

[00:48:36] at time so how did you find this episode dad were you satisfied would you give it

[00:48:41] a five star rating. I'd give it my normal two and a half but then again

[00:48:45] I'm an optimist. Two and a half half full half full of stars.

[00:48:51] Well I think we covered a few interesting areas there not just a little bit more

[00:48:57] about our collective stories but our perception of ourselves and the

[00:49:02] interface of that with the different times you know there's lots to explore here.

[00:49:07] That's the reason why we embarked upon this journey son.

[00:49:15] And I'm pleased it's going the way it's going and you know me I would have

[00:49:23] sliced my wrists by now if I didn't have a decent sense of humour.

[00:49:27] What's your favourite expression again life is far too important to be taken

[00:49:31] seriously. No you almost got it. Oh did I? Yeah I was just kind of throwing

[00:49:37] it out there. Life is far too serious to be taken seriously.

[00:49:45] On that note more serious business coming. Okay hopefully just stay with me

[00:49:51] dad episode five give us another week will you could be our best one yet.

[00:49:57] God you are a marketing manager. Well I'm just trying to get people to

[00:50:02] hang on for the next episode. I don't give a fuck about people hanging on.

[00:50:07] Mainly you. Come on dad we can do this together let's get to 11.5.

[00:50:12] You're having to lift me up on my fucking puppet strings aren't you? Yeah yeah yeah.

[00:50:17] Big deal. I'll give you a reason to live dad that's fine.

[00:50:21] Oh yeah. Live so far. Well it used to be women who gave me a reason to live so

[00:50:26] now it's episode five. Alrighty been a pleasure. Bye.